00:00
But first I’ll introduce myself. I’m Laura Cameron. I work at the International Institute for
Sustainable Development with my colleague, Zach um, we the iisd is a think tank working on
environmental and Sustainable Development Research and Policy. Um, we work internationally,
but we’re actually headquartered and based here in in Winnipeg, and our team, the team that
Zach and I are part of work on energy and climate policy, both in Canada at the federal level,
and also here. And what we’re going to talk about today is actually a project that we’re kind of
in the midst of. So it’s very much a work in work in progress, and we welcome any thoughts,
comments, questions or input. But basically, over the last number of months, we’ve been
working on this project, exploring how to transition the building sector in Manitoba to reach net
zero, to get off of fossil fuels by mid century. What does that look like, especially given kind of
the old building stock that we have in Manitoba, and the sort of angle that we’ve taken with this
research is really focused on kind of the social side of things, looking at workforce implications
and equity implications and opportunities of this transition in our building sector, and
particularly, what kind of policies and safeguards can we put in place to make sure that you
know the transition built in the building sector doesn’t worsen inequality and ideally improves
things For those most marginalized by our current building system. And we have been working
on this research with the CCPA Manitoba, the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives, as well as
Professor Mark Hudson from the U of M with the support of the Winnipeg foundation. So just to
shout out those folks who are very much a part of it, and thus far, we’ve done sort of a range of
literature review and interviews with experts in the sector across the province, and we’re still
kind of synthesizing the findings and writing up a report, which we will be publishing later this
spring or early summer. And so we’ll definitely distribute that through SPM channels when the
time comes, we can
02:24
go to the next slide Zach,
02:29
so as we’ll talk about a bit more, there’s obviously lots of challenges with decarbonizing the
building sector, which many of you may be familiar with. And some of the pieces that we’ve
been thinking about and looking at is sort of where to strike the balance between deep energy
been thinking about and looking at is sort of where to strike the balance between deep energy
retrofits and increasing renewable energy generation, especially in the Manitoba context, given
our kind of unique grid and we’ve been focused on, as I said, implications for workforce, for
governance and procurement, as well as the the finance side, looking at potential financing
mechanisms and pathways given kind of the Intense investment needed for to make energy
efficiency uh, reality in in buildings here, um, and, yeah, we recognize that there has been
some great research done on this in the province, um, already, um, and especially by the road
to resilience team and others who are focused on kind of this intersection between buildings
and climate and energy efficiency, and so we’re hoping to to build upon that work. And Zach
has really been leading the way on this project, so I’ll pass it over to him.
03:54
Thanks, Laura. I’m going to talk a little bit about deep, deep energy retrofits now, yeah, like
Laura said, sustainable building, Manitoba has done such a good job promoting, you know,
talented speakers, and we’re, you know, we’re drawing on on a lot of that literature here deep
energy retrofits, or der is, is describes when your house is renovated to reduce energy use. So
it’s much more comprehensive than a typical retrofit. Some of you might be familiar with
programs like the greener homes grant, where you can get some some money to to get new
windows or new doors or something like that. But a deep energy retrofit is when, when, when
serious construction happens on your house to to substantially reduce energy, energy use in
your home. So this picture is of a design method called the Larson trust method. Essentially
what happens is they build a new house around your existing house and allows them to put a
huge amount of insulation in there. And our research is focused focusing specifically on
residential homes rather than commercial homes. So. Yeah. So the first step is to kind of assess
the housing stock, the housing stock in Manitoba. Manitoba has the oldest, or one of the oldest
housing stocks in Canada, with 16% of all homes built prior to 1946 this matters, because older
homes tend to be pretty terrible from an energy efficiency standpoint. In the 1990s building
codes got upgraded significantly, and energy savings in the housing stock jumped significantly
as well. The other thing about the Manitoba housing stock that needs to be taken into
consideration is just the cold climate, as we all know, the temperature swings here are pretty,
pretty extreme, and this creates a an issue for peak demand in the coldest time in in the
winter, there’s just a huge amount of demand on the system. And this is, this is a real, a real
challenge for our energy grid. And this graph shows about how energy gets used in the
residential sector. It is mostly for space, heating, cooling. Cooling a space requires a lot less
energy than heating space does. And so this is just represents a massive challenge across
Canada, there’s somewhere around 11 or 12 million residential buildings that need to be
retrofitted. That includes, like almost every single building across every single residential
building across Canada needs to be retrofitted, or, pardon me, Manitoba as well. So the state of
deep energy retrofits in Manitoba today, the first thing to point out is that they’re just incredibly
expensive An average home like, what might An average home be like three or 403 or
$400,000 in in some neighborhood might like, it might cost an equal amount. It might cost, like,
300,000 or $400,000 to do a full retrofit. We don’t have solid numbers on this yet, but if you
talk to people in who are doing these retrofits, that’s essentially what they’re saying. It’s just
incredibly expensive, and there’s a small niche of builders in a Manitoba market today that can
do that work, and they and they do do the work, and they’re engaged, and they’re doing
important, important construction work there, but really it is only a relatively small sector of
people who are essentially paying for it out of pocket. The other thing to talk about is funding.
So if you look at Canadian programs like the greener homes grant, it’s a federal program. It’s
probably the most well known building energy retrofit program for residential spaces. What you
find is that they’re really good. They’ve been really effective at promoting smaller retrofits, but
these more comprehensive like massive, deep energy retrofits. It they don’t have, they don’t
really have the juice to to promote these kind of retrofits, and mostly it just comes down to
funding. Like, like, I said, they’re just so expensive. The greener homes grant caps out at five
grand. So if you just think about it, like, let’s say you’re a homeowner. I mean, if you have an
extra two, $300,000 sitting around then, then you can maybe undertake a deep energy retrofit.
But just for most people, it’s just out of it’s, it’s, it’s beyond, it’s beyond their means. And so you
take the five grand from the greener homes grant, and you you get do as best as you can. You
get new windows and new doors. Costs add up, and then that’s, that’s basically all you can do.
The issue is getting new windows and new doors doesn’t actually make a dramatic impact on
emissions. It is one of the factors, but it is not like the single biggest factor. And so this
organization called Green Communities Canada, this federal organization, did an analysis of the
greener homes grants and kind of the retrofitting programs. And what they found is that they,
as I said, that they’ve been very good at stimulating these smaller retrofits, but, but energy
savings have been limited. And then this graph in the bottom left shows how many of these
were deep energy retrofits, and they tried, with their policy mechanisms to boost that and get
more and more Canadians doing these deeper retrofits rather than the smaller retrofits. But it’s
still a very small amount. It’s like 6% of all grants. And just to make it clear, like people in these
spaces are doing the best they can, but there’s just limited funding, and that’s really one of the
main, you know, the main things that that’s holding us back. So in terms of policy for achieving
emissions reductions in the building sector, the big thing that we’re looking at in Manitoba. Is
we’re trying to achieve a balance between doing retrofits and also implementing a renewable
energy technology. So on one hand, we have to retrofit buildings as efficiently as possible and
as economically as possible, but on the other hand, to do a full scale retrofit on every building
is kind of out of the it’s just not feasible. And this is, this is something that a lot of retrofit
builders are talking talking about. So we’re kind of trying to figure out what exactly that
balance looks like between doing them the most efficient, the most economical retrofit we can
do, and and couple that with renewable energy system. So and finding exactly what this
balance looks like is very challenging. This is something that we’re still struggling with. We’re
still like wrestling with this in our own research that’s going to be published in the summer,
where we’ll have a little bit more, more detail fleshed out here. And the reason it’s so difficult to
determine this because it’s, it’s really, it goes on a house by house basis, that a house built in
the 90s, let’s say, requires a way different system than a house built, you know, in in the 30s or
the 40s. And this comes down to just so many different factors, insulation, the roof, how this
how the basement is built, old windows, doors. There’s so many different factors that come into
play. And this is where enter guide comes into play as well. And our guide is the system. It’s
basically the federal system, how we how you get grants. So first the under guide person
comes into your home, and they do like an analysis, and then they say, Okay, we recommend,
if you’re going to do retrofits, we recommend this, this and this. And then afterwards, they
come back and they do another analysis, and they say, Okay, you saved this much energy, and
we can quantify that. And it’s been a very effective system. It works really well. And so what
the most intelligent way to pursue a comprehensive retrofit strategy is to is to rely on this
energy enter guide data so that we can have, like a comprehensive understanding of what
needs to happen in all these homes. And one thing we’re looking at is doing limited deep
energy retrofits. So maybe not doing a full scale, 100%
12:27
you know, deep energy retrofit, but just doing
12:31
the, like I said, the most economical and the most efficient thing you can do with the resources
we have. So something that builders talk about is air sealing, making sure that it’s there’s not
just cold air coming in and the hot air just flowing out of your house, which is pretty much
exactly what happens in a lot of old homes and and also just adding insulation there are kind of
like, like, I guess you could say the low hanging fruit, like, what are the simplest like, Most
obvious steps we can take to do to achieve significant emissions reductions and to achieve
significant energy efficiency in buildings. The other element of this is the potential of ground
source heat pumps. If you’re familiar at all with sustainable building Manitoba, you know about
ground source heat pumps, basically, and that’s an image I have pictured here. And basically
it’s, it’s a lot more efficient than just a traditional heating, traditional electric heat. This is also
referred to as geothermal technology. Basically, it uses one quarter or 1/3 of the electricity
required by a conventional heating system, and almost half of all heating in Manitoba comes
from electric heat, and it’s a very inefficient use of our energy. So basically, if you take a
conventional house and switch it to switch it to geothermal heating, you can save a significant
amount of energy. So with every house that you switch over away from electric heating to
geothermal heating, it opens up space on the grid for more to to create geothermal heating for
even more homes. So if you talk with someone, for example, some of you may have heard
someone like Ed Lorenz talk about geothermal. He points out that we spent $1.3 billion on what
im dam. I think we’re all familiar with the situation of dams in northern Manitoba, that they’re
very ecologically destructive and they’re pretty brutal for indigenous communities as well.
Instead of spending billions of dollars on a on a new dam, we could spend instead hundreds of
millions, like we could spend less money than a dam cost to save the equivalent or even more
energy. But because of how Manito hydro structure, they’re not looking at energy savings as
much as they are. You know, renewable. Energy generation, hydro, energy generation. And so
around of there are 3000 buildings in Manitoba, and less than 1% of them are currently heated
with geothermal technology. And then one other thing I would want to talk about here is a
neighborhood based approach. Like I said, one of the main challenges here is that so many
different there’s so many different homes, so many different housing types, that it’s very
difficult to create one overarching kind of comprehensive building, comprehensive building
strategy. And one approach that some neighborhoods have been taking is a kind of a
neighborhood based approach, where we go, okay, all homes built in this style, between
whatever 1996 and 1998 they need this retrofit, and then this is the way that you can achieve
economies of scale, where things start to get very efficient, things that start to get very cheap,
because you have this kind of system, systemic approach, rather than going every house, like,
house by house, going, okay, like, what Does this house need. What does this house need? So
the neighborhood based approach is something that also has potential to
16:10
to promote significant energy savings.
16:15
Another thing that we want to consider here is the issue of procurement and public policy. So
procurement basically refers to this idea of the government acting as a purchaser for the
industry. Some of you in climate spaces might have heard of this book by Seth Klein. He wrote
a book called The Good War, where he compared mobilization of the Canadian government for
World War Two with the mobilization that we need for to to achieve our, you know, our climate
targets. Um, so one thing, like, one example from in the book, is that he talked about, like, the
government manufacture of the the things we needed for the war. They didn’t make they didn’t
create market conditions to incentivize, um, businesses what they did, they just started
building like tanks, and they just started building machines and planes and these kinds of
things. And then so when a business came on to start making tanks or making truck tracks,
pardon me, trucks or whatever they were, they couldn’t kind of screw over the government and
make a huge amount of money, because the government was very tightly controlling how
much every industry was producing, and a number of people in Manitoba is building industry.
Reference this book because it’s a very kind of common sense and approach to how we need to
be mobilizing for the climate as well. A similar book was written by an economist, an economist
by the name of Mariana mozucato, who writes a book about mission economy, and she uses a
similar comparison with the Apollo Project. There are so many examples in American history as
well of the government making these kind of massive public investments. So for example, the
Apollo Project was when they tried to land someone on the moon. And this was a massive
public project, and it was run very efficiently and very economically by the government. And
because of neoliberalism, of course, we’ve seen a shift away from that to all this kind of market
centered thinking. And it was interesting for me, in the research doing that, that this kind of
these kind of references came up in the Canadian literature as well. So pictured here is a report
by by efficiency Canada, where they talked about our Canada’s climate retrofit mission. And
the word mission, there is a reference to mazzucatos mission economy, where she talks about
that the governments need to have. We need to have mission oriented policy goals, and this is
what we need for the for the public sector, but pardon me, for the building sector as well,
because the our targets are so ambitious, like if we were to take climate change seriously, if we
were to take to take our our building goals, seriously, it would be it would represent a massive
shift in how we how we approach public infrastructure projects. And this is the kind of, this kind
of bold, ambitious, entrepreneurial thinking that needs to be embraced by the public sector.
And so this is another important part of of what, of what our research looks at here. So the the
main example that’s relevant in the Manitoba context is, is starting with Manitoba housing, or
maybe like indigenous owned housing, and start to build an economy around an economy of
building energy retrofits, around these around these types. I. So the other element of this is
that that is the significant amount of job creation and workforce development that that we
need for this. If we it is possible to quickly train a large workforce to be able to do this kind of
work, we want to avoid a situation where der workers are turned into kind of assembly line
workers. And instead, we want to make sure that these workers are getting skills they need to,
to build careers, rather than just kind of be used as, yeah, like I mentioned, assembly line
workers and the issue, it’s not an issue of a labor shortage, but rather an issue of skill shortage
and building skills proactively will can can address this kind of supply issue. The other issue
that came up in our interviews was around employment, around energy modeling, the way
funding works, for for energy modeling has been or basically like, for example, enter guide
workers if you want, like an inner guide person, to come to your house and evaluate energy
efficiency in your building. I mean, this is an important set of skills to have. It’s an important job
to have. But the way the funding has gone is that if funding all of a sudden gets cut, like we’ve
talked to der builders, who all of a sudden they need to, like, like, a whole bunch of their
workforce gets fired, and all of that development of skill and industry kind of gets lost, and then
maybe there’s funding. Funding comes back five years, 10 years later, and then they have to
kind of rebuild this, and it’s very disruptive. So a big part of this is creating stable, long term
funding to make sure that there is the jobs we need for for building energy efficiency experts as
well.
21:51
Another issue is
21:55
the issue of quantifying retrofit building stock to help Gage, to gage the effect on employment.
So in the Maritimes, the Maritime Provinces, they they’re assessing the number of homes they
need to retrofits that they need to retrofit, and their requirements, for example, how many heat
pumps do they need? You know, how much, how much building material they need. And and
this is, this is also a way to kind of predict employment and support, you know, employment in
the field. So finally, our research is going to come up with a series of of recommendations.
Some of these are relatively straightforward that many of you will be familiar with. For
example, building the building code needs to be upgraded. Item. Not going to go into detail
here it’s, you know, this is very clear. Other Other things are like supporting a geothermal
utility in Manitoba. This is something that the road to resilience documents have have talked
about that something that we support as well. We mentioned a government run procurement
strategy. And then there’s other smaller policies as well. For example, mandatory building
energy efficiency labeling, like, if you buy a house today, how efficient it is, or how efficient the
heating is. It’s some it’s like this small, little afterthought that almost doesn’t even come up,
which, if we’re going to take climate change seriously. That’s, which is, that’s, like, pretty
unacceptable. And there’s other places in Canada, for example, in Alberta, they’re pushing for
this, that if you buy a house, the government, like you are forced to create a rating, like, how
energy efficient is this house? And then that’s going to affect the market price. And so there’s
other smaller things like that. And we don’t have a firm list to share with you quite yet, because
we’re still in the process of it, but that’s that. That’s basically the gist of our research. And I left
a few minutes for questions as well, if people have any thanks,
24:00
amazing. Oh, Laura, you can take it if you want to go for it. I was just
24:05
going to say there’s a few questions and some good discussion happening in the chat. One
piece around embodied carbon and how, you know, where’s the kind of trade off between
replacing buildings? Versus retrofitting, I think both from an economic perspective as well as
from an emissions perspective. And that is obviously a huge question, one that we’ve been
talking about a lot in our research. I think it’s definitely something we’re going to incorporate in
the report. I don’t think we’re going to be able to do a full, kind of, you know, really robust, like,
calculations with, like, including the full life cycle emissions, because there’s just the the data is
very hard to get. I would say, um. But I think it’s definitely something we’re flagging. I don’t
know, Zach, if you have any more comments on that, that piece
25:07
25:07
on the data issue. Um, on the
25:09
like, embodied carbon and and where the trade off is between replacing buildings versus
retrofitting?
25:18
Yeah, the question of replacing buildings versus retrofitting is very challenging. I’m not exactly
sure what to say about it. It comes down to a house by house basis. Like, if there’s some
smaller, older homes, like in the in, in, like, let’s say the North End, that maybe cost $100,000
but my the deep energy retrofit cost might be like, 300 or 400 and then and and then this leads
to all kinds of there’s this other social aspect as well that we need to make sure that equity is a
strong component in here as well. And this, this opens the question, opens the door to kind of a
series of of issues that we need to take into consideration. And unfortunately, I wasn’t able to
get into into that section in very much detail here, should I go through the list and kind of
address some of these questions
26:06
here? Yeah, I think maybe the next one that I saw was around private finance, like, what is how
do we incentivize or attract private finance into or to participate in this. I think that’s an area
that Mark Hudson is sort of leading in our research, that on this finance side, and one of the
areas that he’s sort of exploring is the role of, or the potential for public banking, like
capitalizing a public bank that could, you know, finance, a lot of these projects on like a
neighborhood in the larger
26:45
scale, so that we don’t,
26:49
yeah, so that we can kind of lead with,
26:52
or proceed with public investment, even if the private market isn’t, kind of leading the way. But
I don’t know, Zach, if you have more to say on the finance side,
27:03
27:03
yeah. So we’re doing this research in collaboration with the CCPA and the U of M. Those people
aren’t here with us right now, and that’s kind of we we let them, yeah. Sorry, that’s not exactly
my area of expertise, but it is. It is a very important part trying to mobilize private private
finance. Sorry, I can’t give them any details about that right
27:28
now. I see one comment in the chat about monitoring reporting on embodied carbon, like they
have required in Vancouver, which is not something that I was aware of personally, is definitely
something that we should look into, I don’t know exactly if you’re familiar with
27:42
that. Again, there’s so many elements to this here, like the element of finance and labor and
even colonialism and social equity. And then there’s embodied carbon as well. It would have
been great to get into embodied carbon a little bit more. If you think about like, think about
almost every exterior facing a wall on every building in Manitoba needs to be retrofitted. The
amount of building materials that are going to be required is just astronomical. It would be
good to have a very thoughtful approach to embodied carbon on this as well. It’s, I’m not sure
that’s something that we’ve been able to really dig into as much as maybe we could have. So
28:22
I appreciate the comment, though,
28:25
no. And I think, Zach, you’re absolutely right. It is a multivariate problem, right? Because the
first thing is, does it even make sense? I think one I’m I’m Steve Wilson in Vancouver, and
hearing that there’s houses for sale anywhere in Canada for $100,000 just makes me cry and
want to throw up a little bit. But, you know, in different markets, what’s the incentive? I was
talking to a contractor in Calgary who was saying, and he does deep energy retrofits, and the
first question he asked is, should we do this? Because if this house is going to be better as a
duplex, a triplex or quad Plex, and in Vancouver, they recently allowed up to six plexes on a
single family lot. Is that, you know, if we do this deep energy retrofit for 300 grand, is the house
going to be here in 10 years, right? Would it be better to not do it and for sure, just increase the
density, right? So the first question is, does it make economic sense? Is the next owner going to
continue this? Because most people I’m I’ve seen some research kind of view their home
ownership at about seven, eight years and then, and then after the financing, question is, what
do we do? And how do we do it, and what’s the best decision? So you’re absolutely right. It is, it
is complicated and and really excited to learn about the specific concerns in Manitoba.
29:40
Yeah, yeah. I think that’s a great point, and that’s also something that’s come up through the
conversations that we’ve had with interviewees, is around the yeah, there’s efficiency at the
building level, and then there’s also other types of efficiency, like density, for instance, and
that’s something that we need to factor in. Because, of course, if you, if you build a do.
Complex or quad Plex on a single family lot, and you have, you know, four times more people
living there. You increase the efficiency per capita far more than you would by retrofitting that
house. And so I think there’s a there’s, yeah, as we’ve sort of began to unpack this research,
definitely like, I think we have more questions than we started with. So this report will be more
about kind of flagging, some of these, you know, laying out the kind of lay of the land, and
some of those practices, like what’s happening in BC and other jurisdictions, and sort of some
of the considerations around, how do we reach economies of scale, how do we balance kind of
the economic and the emission side when it comes to replacing versus retrofitting? And yeah, I
think considerations around density and other sort of forms of efficiency are a huge part of
that. So certainly won’t have all the answers, but we’ll have, hopefully a few more answers by
the time we publish our report.
31:06
I see one more question there about, how does the public bank idea differ from government
operations, taxes used for public infrastructure?
31:18
Yeah, I wish Nile was here to kind of dig into the public bank,
31:22
public banking element. Laura, do you have thoughts on this?
31:27
Yeah, not. I can’t speak with any authority on public banking. Sorry, we’ll have to circle back to
you on that with our fellow researchers.
31:37
Yeah, once the report comes out, this question will be addressed in detail, though. So, you
know, weight and eager anticipation.
31:46
Would it be similar to some of the PACE programs that are that I that are in Ontario, or the seat
programs in Alberta?
31:54
PACE is an important part of this. Um, it’s a very, it’s a very important it’s a very important
thing. But there’s also an element of this that that just at some point needs to be undertaken
by by the public sector, rather than putting putting it on individuals. And again, this comes back
to even, like, what we were just saying about efficiency, like, is it efficient to do to raise
building efficiency in a in like, a row of single homes, or maybe, does it make more sense to,
like to build a giant multi unit residential building, and then, then the funding for this is all, is all
much different, but yeah, again, like I said, sorry that we can’t give as much detail as as on the
financing element of these of this year. Yeah.

00:00
Okay, so, yeah, my name is Chris Hewitt. I’m an electrical engineer with SMS engineering, and
I’ve had an interest in sustainable buildings going back 2025, years. I want to preface
everything I’m saying here under the heading of I am completely in agreement that we are
facing a climate catastrophe, and that global warming is definitely not a myth. I’m going to
present some things today that might suggest that we have some challenges, which I think we
all know about, but the primary heading of my presentation is we’re on track to decarbonize
Manitoba with electricity alone. And I just wanted to tell a little bit of a story about how I got
here. Before Christmas, I was thinking, maybe it’s time to change my vehicle. And I thought
maybe now’s the time for an electric vehicle. So I borrowed one for a couple of days. I live out
of town, so I recognize that maybe I’m not your typical EV driver, but I immediately started to
notice some some limitations with with the vehicle and range and that kind of thing. But as I
was driving, I got thinking about the way our electrical system is going to react to the
proliferation of electric vehicles, and then further, how that might be impacted by our need to
move off of fossil fuel for heating buildings. And I prepared around Christmas time a blog called
Exploring the complex considerations surrounding electric vehicles. And a lot of that blog was
was subjective calculation. So I thought, well, you know what? I better put my money where my
mouth is, and I better actually bring some engineering rigor to my my subjective calculations,
and that’s how I got here today. So as I said, My title is we’re on track to decarbonize Manitoba
with electricity alone, and I want to explore whether that is a myth or whether that is a
potential fact. Such So historically, in Manitoba, our electrical system has probably been one of
our greatest assets. We usually, I think, safe to say, we considered it to be an infinite source of
energy.

We have an abundance of capacity, and it will serve us way off into the future, and we
don’t need to worry about it. Current and previous governments have made great investments
in our generating capacity, and we are where we are today. But I think as an electrical
engineer, I’ve been able to take a little bit of a back seat in building design and watch my
mechanical colleagues and my building envelope colleagues really take a lead in how to make
buildings more sustainable. But today I’m here to show you, I think that those without change,
those days are gone, and really now electrical engineers and electrical engineering is on the
critical path to decarbonization. We need to understand that our electricity and electrical
system is a finite resource, and we need to use it more wisely. So a little bit of electrical history
for you. We started building electrical power stations here in our province in and around 1900
so about 100 years ago, we have 16 hydroelectric power stations generating something of the
order of 6100 megawatts of electrical power. We use within our province somewhere between
4000 505,000 megawatts, depending on the time of the year. But the peak demand is in that
range. Think our record peak demand was in 2019 January, 2019 in addition to the to the
amount of power that we use, we also export about 1600 megawatts. I’m only looking at winter
exports because we are a winter heavy province. Our winter demand is higher than our
summer demand and our peak demand. When you combine what we use as Manitobans and
what we export is around about 6060 megawatt so we’re essentially operating at peak
capacity. We have revenues. Hydro has revenues in the range of $2.6 billion a year, of which
1.1 billion comes from exporting electricity predominantly south of the border, but also to the
west, to Saskatchewan as well. Those exports are long term contracts. I think the furthest one
out expired in and around 2052 and then the one closest to expiring is around 2027 remember
that export number? I’m not an accountant, but something of the order of about 50% of our
revenues comes from exports. When you look at Manitoba, Idaho website, they tell you that our
rates would be around about 20% higher if we didn’t export electricity. So there’s clearly a
reason why you. We export electricity, it has made great sense for us as Manitobans, we have
reaped those rewards for decades, and we’ve enjoyed lower than market energy electrical
energy rates as a result of, in part, those exports and as a result of the investments that
current and past governments have made. Those days are coming to an end, though, we are a
province that predominantly heats using natural gas. I’m an electrical engineer, but I will
through through research here, we use something of the order of 72 million cubic meters of gas
per year. That equates to an equivalent 7000 gigawatt hours of electricity. Now I can play
around with these numbers any month from Sunday, I can play around with these numbers, but
generally speaking, that equates to something between seven and 8000 megawatts of
electrical demand if we were to completely electrify our natural gas infrastructure. Now we
can’t talk about electrification without talking about electric vehicles. I think in Manitoba, we’re
sort of standing at the bottom of the mountain, looking up the cliff face as it as it comes to
electric vehicles, each year, we have something like 44,000 new vehicles registered on our
roads. If all of those were electric vehicles, that would equate to something like 95 megawatts
of electrical demand. If 30% of them were plugged into level two charges at any one time, we
have close to a million vehicles on our roads. If we electrified all 1 million of them, that would
be about 2000 megawatts of electrical demand, again, based on that 30% load factor. Now the
federal government has mandated that by 2035 all new vehicles will be zero emission at
source. And clearly, on that date, in 2035 we’re not going to suddenly step change from
gasoline powered vehicles to electric vehicles. So assuming roughly a 10 year life cycle, 10 to
15 year life cycle for for a vehicle, by 2035 we’re going to see an electrical demand in and of
the range of about 600 megawatts. If we assume all these vehicles are passenger vehicles,
that’s not really realistic, because we do have commercial vehicles on the road. We have a
mining and resource sector that uses an awful lot of vehicles also. At present, it’s my opinion,
it’s not practical to electrify the commercial stock, particularly some of the remote locations,
whether it be forestry or whether it be mining. In the mining sector, a typical rock truck, large
rock trucks are at 3000 horsepower diesel engine, consuming about a million gallons of diesel
each year. So converting that in a remote location to a battery powered vehicle and finding the
energy to recharge that will be very impractical, likely will require burning fossil fuels to make
that electricity. So I’m just considering electric vehicles and for this presentation, really just
considering the energy usage through through recharging those vehicles. But I think it’s worth
noting that when you look at greenhouse gas emissions, you have to look at the complete life
cycle of both internal combustion engines and electric vehicles. It’s something between 50 and
100,000 kilometers to get to that break even point, based upon a benchmark Volvo study. So
electric vehicles are not necessarily the answer, and we’re going to have a challenge in
recharging them.
08:41
08:41
So when you do the simple math,
08:45
look at peak demands. We have a current capacity of about 6100, megawatts. We’re using
about 40, 460 within the province, another 1600 outside the province. Right now we have
about 40 megawatts available. I’m ignoring the spot markets right now, spot markets are
obviously useful to trade energy, but it’s a given that if we need energy in peak demand times,
we’re probably going to be paying a higher price in our free market economy. Electric vehicles
by 2035 I’m estimating will consume something like 600 megawatts and converting all of our
natural gas infrastructure to resistance based heat is something of the order of seven to 8000
megawatts, so we have a shortfall in excess of our current generating capacity. So we are less
than halfway to what we would need to be in order to supply this required demand. So the
myth is well and truly busted. We cannot electrify our way out of carbonization, at least not
based on this maths. The usual solutions as well that I hear from people don’t work either. So
the usual solutions is Oh, but that’s okay. We’ll divert our export capacity. The and we’ll use it
within the province. The problem is, is that’s committed contracted capacity, some of which
goes out to 2052 there are significant source of revenue, and sure some of that revenue would
be assisted if we were to consume that energy within our province. But hydro Zone website
says we save something like 20% on our current rates by exporting so it’s a given that probably
rates would need to increase if we diverted that capacity as it became available. The other
thing I hear is, let’s just, let’s just put solar panels everywhere. Let’s build big solar farms. Our
peak demand occurs in winter, where a day to night variance is only of the order of about 500
megawatts without storage, that solar power has limited effectiveness. We can use the storage
of our our hydroelectric systems to store water behind the dams while the solar system is
available, but solar power is an interruptible source of power. It’s fine when the sun is shining,
but in the winter time when the sun angles are lower, or during cloudy days or during night
time, obviously it has limited effectiveness. And also here, let’s just build wind generating
stations. Now, wind is cheaper to market than hydro power, but it too, is also an interruptible
source that has similar limitations to solar. So there might be a peak demand day when the
wind isn’t blowing. It’s a very calm minus 30 or minus 40 day the wind isn’t blowing, or it’s a
howling gale, and there’s too much wind for the wind turbines to operate. So we have that
sweet spot that we may be operating outside of how do we get out of this? I don’t profess to
have the answers. Bethany will be talking in a bit more detail afterwards about what some of
the answers will be. But remember this film. This is Apollo 13. For those that don’t remember,
think about the way these guys, these are actors in this case, but think about the way the
astronauts got back from the moon, and how important economical and prudent and
sustainable use of electrical energy was, if you remember, they kept overloading the battery,
and they had to find different ways to innovate and to work around the problem. The days of
abundant electricity had gone. The days when we could finance our way to low electricity rates
are gone. We need to invest. And I put it to the group that probably we need, or definitely we
need to increase our utility rates. So what are some of the answers? And I say, I don’t profess to
have all the answers. We have an existing building stock that is using something of the order of
50 to 60% efficient natural gas heating systems. I’ll show you in a couple of slides time this
huge opportunity to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from these buildings. And I put it to you
that we may need to still continue to use efficient, much more efficient natural gas with heat
recovery and better building envelopes to significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions from
these buildings, we need to consider other forms of making heat in buildings using electricity.
So it’s a hypothetical joke here that resistance is futile. In this case, it is. I cannot tell you how
many projects I see go through offices, design offices where resistance heat, heating using
electric boilers, is proposed with huge electrical demands. We need to be considering energy
storage. So whether that be geothermal in the ground, whether that be storing energy behind
dams, or whether that be using other forms of storing energy, whether that be high
temperature energy storage producing steam and steam turbines to generate electricity, we
need to innovate. We need to look at smart renewables. Use solar and wind, along with our
abundance of hydroelectricity. Power generation that we have using dams are storage when
there is solar on wind energy available to supplement the electrical system. We need to think
about smart metering. I hate this covid term, but we need to flatten the curve, and smart
metering is one way that we can do that, allowing the utility to make decisions about when
certain electrical equipment is operating. And we need to invest. We need to raise our electrical
and natural gas rates. We need to look at the carbon tax and find a way to effectively create a
bank account that we can draw upon to green and to better use the infrastructure that we have
and to reduce our reliance upon fossil fuels and invest now in our power generation system and
our distribution system. I haven’t even talked about the 1950s infrastructure that we have in
downtown Winnipeg that is barely able to supply what we’re doing today. The level of
investment that we need to electrify our our energy system is huge, and we. We need to be
thinking now, and frankly, 30 years ago, we needed to be thinking. Sidebar, my father was VP
of Engineering for our utility in the UK, and 30 years ago, he was saying we cannot supply the
demand that electric vehicles will be bringing in the future. And here we are today. The ships
already sail, the barn door is already open. So here’s some proven examples before I hand over
to Bethany. So they’re interested in building simply by changing boilers and moving from a
steam to a hot water based system, 28% reduction in greenhouse gas that’s still using natural
gas boilers. I realize that in long term, is not where we want to go, but I think we have to be
looking at how we get through the short term while we invest in the long term. Negan and
center, using the benchmark model from the Richardson building, we’d be looking at roughly at
34% greenhouse gas emissions, still using natural gas boilers, a major office campus downtown
has seen a benchmark proven 40% greenhouse gas reduction and a major high rise building,
using heat pumps to move energy around the building and using a small electric boiler, is is
forecasting that they’ll see a 92% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. So while greenhouse
gas emissions are not just what we’re talking about, there are ways that we can still use natural
gas to help us through this, this problem that we have today. So according to you, we can’t
electrify ourselves out of this issue. We need to use our electrical resource wisely. We need to
think like those astronauts on Apollo 13, our electrical infrastructure is essentially already run
out, and we haven’t really started the decarbonization process, so it’s already too late. It’s very
unpopular. Need to invest. We’re going to invest. We need to raise our rates. I’ll hand over to
Bethany. She has some of the answers. Thank you. Applause.
17:04
Hello, everybody. I am just going to get my screen set up here. You
17:27
great. So as already mentioned, my name is Bethany Damon, and I am the Communications
Manager with Manitoba climate action team, and I’m here to specifically talk about this point in
this myth about we are on track to decarbonize Manitoba with electricity alone. And I think as I
was having conversations ahead of this about what this myth means and what this means
within the context and the importance of electricity within decarbonization, the point that I
really want to highlight here is that Manitoba, no, we are not currently on track to decarbonize
with electricity alone. However, that is a huge part of the solution, and we want to work
towards getting on track to make sure that the solutions that I am talking about here are
possible. Um, so here is a photo of the Climate Action Team. We are a group of policy and
environmental organizations who are working together to advocate for and document climate
solutions that would help all Manitobans affordably meet their essential needs without the use
of fossil fuels. As a coalition, we are incredibly concerned about the human impacts of
increasing extreme weather events. So we came together after the IPCC 1.5 report came out,
calling on policy makers to document evidence based solutions, because we hadn’t seen
anything from the provincial government that would help us get even remotely close to the
emission reduction targets that were being called for by the IPCC, which in this report, if you
haven’t heard of it before, essentially, there are scientists from All around the world who have
come together and documented the levels at which regions around the world need to reduce
their emissions and ultimately get to net zero emissions by 2050 in order to prevent
catastrophic, extreme weather events and challenges associated with climate change. Within
the context of what we are doing here at the Climate Action Team, we’re acknowledging that at
this point, most Manitobans, including myself, who is sitting in my South Osborne home with a
relatively inefficient heating system old windows because I am unable to I don’t have the
capital in order to retrofit my home. Home on my own and get to the point where I need to be
and and as a coalition, we’re recognizing that this is the place that a lot of Manitobans are in,
and so that’s kind of influenced everything that I’m going to talk about today. There’s two
quotes that I wanted to quickly share with you that are just really significant in the work that
I’m doing as I as I look towards solutions here in Manitoba, one of those is, as climate change
impacts intensify, life will become even less affordable. That’s from the Canadian climate
Institute. And the other one is just simply that the biggest threat to everyone’s health and well
being is climate change, which is from a local retired public health nurse who I’ve been working
with on campaign strategies to help make climate solutions more possible here in Manitoba. So
knowing that climate solutions exist, the climate action team has spent the past five years
documenting these solutions that would help lead to zero emissions here in Manitoba, we’ve
worked with area experts and policy makers to collectively find strategies that would not only
help reduce emissions here in Manitoba, but also reduce energy costs for Manitobans. So we’ve
taken all these solutions that we’ve collected and we’ve compiled them into a report series
called The road to resilience. It has five different volumes in it, well, I guess three volumes, and
then within the third volume, there’s three sub volumes. And we continue to come back to this
question in the volumes, and we’re trying to answer this question, what do we need to do to
reduce Manitoba emissions, and how can we do it? So in the first volume, we asked, What do
we need to do? And what we determined is that we need to heat all of our buildings, old and
new, affordably without fossil gas, often commonly referred to as natural gas. We need to move
all goods and people without gasoline and diesel, and we need to ensure that Manitobans have
access to affordable food that has been produced without synthetic fertilizers and without
diesel for machinery. So we focus on these three areas, buildings, transportation and food,
because this is where the majority of Manitoba emissions come from these are all incredibly
important things, but the reality is that alternatives do exist to be able to meet these needs
without the use of fossil fuels. So as we looked into what are the solutions, the next report,
after our initial community pathway with which outlines and asks the questions of what we
need to do here in Manitoba, we needed to start answering the questions exactly, how can we
do this? So in Volume Two of the road to resilience called energy solutions, we outline a
number of different solutions, and I obviously won’t have time to highlight them all today, but I
am going to go through as many solutions as I can here, and then I’ll leave you a resource to be
able to look more into the road to resilience and additional solutions if you’re interested. So the
first thing we highlight in the energy solutions report is the importance of making all of our
buildings as energy efficient as possible. We talk about heating and cooling our buildings
electrically on district geothermal systems, so that there’s shared heat between different
buildings and communities. We talk about the importance of reducing the need for vehicle
transportation and making all vehicles electric. So adding on to the point that that Chris made,
the reality is, right now, we don’t have infrastructure set up, and systems are not in place for
for everything to be electric. So that’s a huge piece of the puzzle, is being able to ensure that
we have, we have the electrical requirements here in Manitoba to make this possible. But of
course, another big, significant piece of this is reducing our reliance on vehicle transportation
so as much as possible, having shifts so that people are using shared public transportation,
both rurally and urban. Anyone who is able to cycle, focus on carpooling. All the things that we
can do to reduce our reliance on vehicles, and then any remaining vehicles that are essential
and left on the road, we would be making electric. We also talk about the importance of
increasing local electrical generation, primarily through wind power, and then developing
thermal and electrical energy storage systems to ensure that at times of peak capacity, or at
times when there isn’t necessarily as much wind or potentially solar available, we have enough
energy stored up so that demands are still able to be met. Following the release of the energy
solutions report, we started getting into a sub series called the policy solution series. So volume
3.1 of the road to resilience series. There’s lots of. Have lots of different layers to the series, so
we have an outline of it on our website if you’re interested. But the first volume in the policy
solution series talks about coordination and finance. So we talk about the importance of
establishing a target of zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, or sooner, and implementing
concrete actions to make it possible to meet that target. From a financing perspective, we talk
about returning the carbon tax to Manitoba and using this revenue to finance climate solutions
while still rebating the lowest 40% of households to ensure that they don’t experience and that
loss. And to Chris’s point earlier, I don’t know if anyone saw in the chat, but our lead author of
the road to resilience, Curt Hall, who is also an electrical engineer and on the board of
efficiency Manitoba, he noted in the chat that the reason that exports reduce domestic rates is
because we have surplus and that capacity would otherwise not be used. If we consume that
power domestically, it will actually increase hydro revenue, because it will be sold at nine cents
per kilowatt hour, instead of the export price of three to five cents. And so that is another piece
that could potentially be evaluated and considered when talking about funding and financing
sources for the solutions that we’re talking about, one of the big things going back to my point
about me currently living in a relatively inefficient home is the importance of financing to
ensure that all Manitobans are able to make the changes on their homes that they’re Need to
even if they don’t have the upfront capital. And one example of this is PACE financing, which
we’ve seen work well in other jurisdictions. One of the other points that we recommend in the
coordination and finance volume is updating efficiency Manitoba mandate to reduce Manitoba
greenhouse gas emissions through the efficient use of electricity, and then also creating a
thermal thermal energy services utility who would also maintain a district heating system. So
geothermal setups wouldn’t be something done on an individual basis, but rather a part of a
larger system that connects and shares heat and cooling as well.
27:24
We would also encourage there to be continuing to have progress towards climate goals that
are reported on regularly. And then if, all of a sudden there is a failure to meet these targets,
which is a very strong possibility, then action needs to be taken to evaluate what changes need
to be made to ensure that we can get back on track to meet these targets, we talk about
adopting the highest tiers of National Energy Code for buildings that are achievable by the
construction industry, and then executing a plan to achieve higher tiers as soon as possible.
And then, of course, prohibiting the use of fossil gas in any new construction specifically related
to buildings, again, using the most economical combination of building envelope
improvements, geothermal and on site solar energy to retrofit each building to achieve the
energy savings required to ensure financial savings exceed amount of PACE loans, and then
finding ways to employ solar energy and waste heat recovery economically to reduce the need
for grid power for water heating. And then finally, we did. We do have a chapter specifically on
vehicle transportation. There’s a lot of challenging conversations within this. If you’re interested
in learning more. Again, you can read the full report. We go back to as much as possible,
decreasing the need for transportation through affordable, safe and reliable rural and urban
public transportation, and then back to this point of ensuring that any vehicles left on the road
are electric, so we we’ve done a lot of evaluating of polls throughout Canada, specifically here
in Manitoba, and then globally as well. The reality is that the majority of Manitobans are
concerned about climate change, and that 75% believe that climate should be considered in all
policy decisions. We commissioned a poll through probe research last year, which left us with
those results. What we need now is policy makers to implement these solutions. So all of these
things led to the launch of the consider climate campaign, which you may have seen signs for
around your neighborhood. We’re not actively distributing signs right now, just due to funding
constraints and people not getting quite as excited about them when we’re not in an active
election time, but it’s something that we are still actively campaigning on, and we’re really
working with policy makers and elected officials and everyday Manitobans to you. Make these
climate solutions a reality, so that we can all, as Manitobans, live affordably without the use of
fossil fuels. So I have left a QR code here if you’re interested in learning more about the road to
resilience. We’ve got information on our website related to advocacy opportunities as well. We
currently have a postcard campaign going if you’re interested in advocating for more of these
solutions, and we’re continuing to work with area experts. So if you have ideas that you’re
wanting to contribute, you can also feel free to reach out anytime. And we continue to work
with with elected officials to implement these solutions to make life not only affordable, but
also possible without the use of fossil fuels.
30:53
Well, thank you so much for all that incredible information you guys both shared here today.
Really appreciate it, and I can tell that people in the chat also appreciated it, as we have some
questions. So to start, does Manitoba hydroelectricity displace or add to fossil fuel based
electricity in adjoining jurisdictions?
31:18
Well, I think, as I recall, Saskatchewan does use some fossil fuels. So, I mean, we are exporting
from our predominantly hydroelectric infrastructure. I honestly don’t know the answer as to
what proportion they generate using fossil fuels. To be able to calculate that south of the
border, yes, definitely some of the coal states that would be importing from us, and I do believe
some states are mandating that they import from areas that have wind, for example, as a
means of generating
31:59
Hey, Great. So there’s a question here. Are you equating that the primary energy, oh, that as a
primary energy or as the actual useful energy for heat pumps are three to four times more
efficient as users of primary energy?
32:13
That’s a really good question. My number was in there for headline effect, because we need to,
we need to deal with this. And frankly, we’re not. So I’m I’m assuming resistance heat, so I’m
not assuming geothermal that would essentially reduce that. What did I say? Seven to 8000
megawatts? It would reduce it down, obviously, considerably, due to the coefficient of
performance there.
32:41
Okay, great. And if people want to learn more about the heat pump world, that’s next week, so
check in then, if you can. So when talking about ng slash electrical supply and peak, any idea
on the split between heat and other processes, or residential, commercial and industrial.
33:04
I Bethany, you may also want to answer this, but I just had a quick look on the federal
government’s Stats Canada page. It’s roughly a third, a third, a third, from residential to
commercial to industrial, not exactly, and it depends on the time of the year, but something of
that order. I can share the site that I went to for that.
33:27
I am going to pass this over to my colleague, Kurt Hall, who is the lead author of the road to
resilience, if he wants to add anything here.
33:38
Well, no, the road to resilience. Work has did focus on residential because we focused, and we
focused most of the analysis that we did on trying to manage the ability to meet peak demand
and being able to heat buildings is sort of like a time constraint challenge. You can’t wait to
heat up your building so much. Whereas a lot of the commercial and industrial is is a power
demand that that can be potentially in sort of emergency situations or whatever move to
another time when the when off of the peak, it’s this dispensable power is that? What they call
it, something like that, like where you you can make arrangements with the with the power
users that basically with costing structures to encourage them to not demand power when the
rest of the grid is challenged to meet the peak demand.
34:42
Excellent. Sense. All right, so what are the impacts on operational costs in the greenhouse gas
reductions examples?
34:53
Well, I can tell you, the Richardson building went from 50% 50 to 60% efficient boiler.
Something in excess of 80% fish and boilers. So for offshore, there was a reduction in operating
costs. I don’t have a slide in front of me now, but the forecast for Negan is some Negan and is
something like a 30% reduction in operating costs. Now there is a an initial upfront investment
in capital, but that particular client has been extremely successful in attracting federal
government incentives to help them convert over from the current very inefficient systems
over to new systems.
35:37
Thank you. Okay, so are there any jurisdictional precedents that have successful, successfully
implemented the urban, rural, affordable, ubiquitous, public transit.
35:47
So I am going to defer this. Well, maybe I’ll ask Laura if she can send out a follow up email to
people. We have a rural transportation study that is going to be coming out in the next couple
of weeks that answers all of these questions. I am not the author on this. I actually, personally
haven’t even read the draft yet, so unfortunately, I don’t feel very qualified to answer and give
you specific examples, but I do know that our our our research lead on this has been evaluating
a number of different regions where this has been successfully done, and it’s absolutely
possible to do. There is also a significant need. I was a part of a number of the consultations
within rural communities here in Manitoba over the past couple of months. And there is a need
for this. They have a number of solutions. It just comes down to funding and so, so I hope that
answers that question, but you can stay tuned and sign up for email updates on the Climate
Action Team website, and as soon as that research study is out, then that’ll have a little bit
more information on that.
37:01
Yeah, and we can drop that into the SBM newsletter when, that’s when that comes out as well.
So yeah, you’ll get the information if you’re paying attention. Follow on the socials, all right, so
there’s some good conversations happening in the chat. Just a question about, why is spray
insulation being featured?
37:22
I saw that question, and I can answer that question honestly. It’s a it’s a stupid, sheepish
answer. It was I was working on this way to last minute, and I just took the literal first stock
photo of insulation and plopped it into the presentation without critically thinking about it. I
would not call myself an expert on deep energy retrofits. So this is a very good point to be
highlighted for me, I do a lot of the communicating of these things. So this is very important, an
important reminder for me that I need to think, think a little bit closer. But there is, there was
nothing. There was no thought put into that. It was just a matter of it was too late as to when I
was inputting the photos into this presentation
38:10
that is incredibly relatable to me. Great answer. Okay, so there’s a little bit of this coming out in
the chat, but I just want to give everybody a space to talk about a little bit more. But are you
proposing district heating for single family residential or primarily for multi family?
38:28
What we’re proposing is every, ultimately, every building in Manitoba. And so the reality is that
we’ve got a lot of excess heat from a variety of different sources. One example that we’ve seen
here in Manitoba is community centers with hockey rinks. They’ve got excess heat coming out. We can use that excess heat to be able to now heat our homes, so connecting entire district
systems, whether that’s homes, whether that’s schools, whether that’s community centers,
whether that’s hospitals, and being able to share that heat so that everything is as efficient as
possible, which obviously is a massive undertaking, and so that’s part of the solutions that
we’re working on, proposing and advocating for in the road to resilience. And
39:10
maybe, if I can just add to that, the one building that I mentioned on my last slide that was is
expecting to see a 92% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions is a building with a lot of data
infrastructure throughout its high rise, and so being able to take that what is effectively waste
heat in one room and move it to another room that needs heat is one of the ways by which
they are hoping to enjoy that game. If you look at clients like pull apart, for example,
substantial amount of that building is actually heated and cold using heat pumps. And they do
move energy around the building so that they take from people with excess heat and give to
those that need the heat, instead of just setting it out through the rooftop equipment.
39:57
And if there’s Is there any examples of this? Level of district heating elsewhere in the world.
40:04
So Kurt would be able to answer this a little bit better, but my understanding would be that this
is what we have seen. Is it’s been done on neighborhood levels, but we haven’t necessarily
seen it done on like a whole provincial level, primarily. Because we don’t have a utility in most
places to be able to manage it. So someone who and Chris looks like there’s something he
wants to add there.
40:34
Before moving to Canada, I used to travel around Europe a lot, and so Stockholm uses a system
that heats about 80% of the city using seawater Moscow, although it’s not a great system, they
have a district heating system. They turn it on and off the same two days of the year,
regardless of temperature, but it is a district based system. If it happens to be cold when they
turn it off, top lock, but it does distribute energy throughout the city, and there are other
Eastern European examples of that, I think, where in the older days, when the government was
the one that provided everything, that was the approach that they took and invested
significantly in that infrastructure, but the stock going model is in use today. It’s 80 to 90% of
the heating and cooling demand is provided through that system. Um,
41:24
Laura, are you okay if I answer this question related to, how would district heating affect
mortgages? Um, so the the point, I think, the point that is really resonated with me in trying to
understand this concept, is that we currently have a utility that manages hydro. And so we
have people who are able to get financing for their natural gas furnaces through Manitoba
Hydro. And that doesn’t necessarily affect your that doesn’t affect your mortgage. This is just
part of I mean, yes and no. I guess there’s examples where if you have a loan that’s not
necessarily paid off when you sell your house, you have to make decision about what route to
go there. But the infrastructure itself does not affect your mortgage. The natural gas
infrastructure under your home does not affect your mortgage. It’s the furnace in your home
that is that would influence the value of your house in the same way that a a ground source
heat pump would be the infrastructure within your home, but the actual, the actual
infrastructure underground. I don’t know if Laura and or Kurt wants to add to that or clarify any
of that. I
42:42
think that was a good answer. And there’s some of these things that like will have to be market
tested to know for sure. Kurt anything. No, that’s,
42:49
that’s exactly Bethany. You got it thing on that, that the analysis we tried to do is to maintain
the affordability of like, rather than individual building owners spending $20,000 and maybe
recouping that that expense over the course of decades. We’re talking about a utility taking it
on, and then we pay it back on a monthly basis, but we but we pay a net no no more than what
we’re paying now net than what we’re paying for energy, because we’re doing it more
efficiently and combating climate change at the same time, but but doing it in a way that
43:26
is affordable.
is affordable.
43:28
I like to build on what Kurt says as well. If you if you just consider electricity as energy, natural
gas as energy, or hot water as energy, it’s all the same thing. So how you get that energy and
what you do with it. How it gets to your home, if you have an energy utility, as opposed to an
electrical and a natural gas utility, then it starts to open up those potential avenues to bring hot
water into a home. And consider it just like we do electricity
43:56
and a key, like an a strategic element of of the of the the geothermal approach is that we, we
store energy when we have an abundance of it, which is in the summertime, and we or and we
put it into into the ground, we store it and then draw it out when we need it. So it’s, it’s a
change from complete always expending energy instead to making a more circular approach to
energy usage.
44:29
Hey? Well, this pretty much ends our time for this session, but I can see that there was some
attention to one comment in the chat about the myth of the carbon tax and carbon pricing. Do
either of you want to comment on that at all just before we close it up? Because this is, you
know, in Manitoba, they’re saying that, Oh, we invested in green energy, so we should pass on
the carbon tax. Any comments on that one?
44:53
I would probably, oh,
44:55
no, no, go for it.
44:59
I. It, I don’t, I haven’t seen the exact comment. So was it specifically related to, well, I can just
speak to the carbon tax in general, and the point that we, we made in there. So the first thing
just kind of quick, quick summary and general understanding for those folks who might be new
to understanding. Oh, thank you for whoever posted this.
45:36
Yes, this is a very good point. I want to definitely validate whoever originally commented This,
Yes, this is a very good point. I want to definitely validate whoever originally commented This,
the majority like when we’re talking about green energy here in Manitoba, first of all, there’s a
lot of complexities that come with the environmental and human impact of hydro. But in
addition to that, the reality is that a large portion of our fossil fuel and or greenhouse gas
emissions is coming from heating our buildings using natural gas and also transportation. And
so for us to say this is, is definitely, is definitely what I would consider greenwashing,
46:16
and
46:18
Manitoba is not doing super well is if we think about where we’re at in emission reduction
targets compared to other regions. Currently, Manitoba and Alberta are the only two provinces
who have not decreased their emissions below 2005 levels, despite the federal government
having targets that are 40% below 2005 levels by 2030 which would be one and a half election
year cycles away for our provincial government. And so what we are recommending within our
solutions is that we would actually bring the carbon tax back home to Manitoba to be able to
use the revenue here, based on our understanding the solutions that we’ve presented into the
in the road to resilience would qualify for us getting off of the federal backstop program and
being able to use this revenue revenue here in Manitoba. But we as a as a Climate Action
Team, are very open to any financing solutions that are feasible. We just feel like based on
every economic argument that we have heard and analysis from other economists this, this
appears to be the most affordability minded, human minded solution. So I would happily talk
about the carbon tax anytime with anyone, which is probably a weird thing to say. I think most
people want to avoid it, but I’ll leave it at that for now. I

 00:02
All right, I imagine everyone can see this. Yeah, my name is Grant. I’m a building envelope
engineer and a bit of a high performance building guru, building science guru. So this one is on
the myth of, does a building need to breathe? And that

00:21
is pretty common to hear

00:24
your build your building too tight. The building needs to breathe. You know, it affects the health
of the indoor occupants and of the building itself. So let’s get through it. So just quickly going
through the outline here, the purpose of this quick presentation to differentiate the needs of of
that topic of building needs to breathe based on both looking at it from the occupant
perspective and the building itself perspective. When we look at the building, we’re looking kind
of thinking more on the moisture management, the water, air and vapor control of the of the
building walls, explore the indoor and outdoor pollutants that affects the the occupants, and
kind of take a review of where the older buildings, The old uninsulated buildings, did. Were they
any better because they they breathed? Were they? Were they better for everyone and for the
building? So at the end of it, hopefully we have a bit of an open conversation to design and
build better based on what what we what I review here, and better understand indoor air
quality and energy loss through the building envelope. Okay, so building needs to breathe two
parts of it. I’m going to break it up into the building side of things, the building envelope, the
health of the building itself, and then the occupants, the health of the people that use the
buildings. So looking at from the from the building side of things, so do buildings need to
breathe? Why? Why do? Why do people say that? So I think the biggest reason is the thought of
moisture management. Buildings get wet. Building materials get wet through seasons, rain
events, groundwater, they need to dry, so it’s okay. It’s okay for most building materials to get
wet as long as they readily can dry. We also have interior moisture sources from people, their
breathing, showering, cooking, their activities, drawing, your clothes and plants as well.

02:55
So I’ve heard of this before,

02:58
and this saying is kind of the most durable building is actually one that has no occupants,
because occupants provide a lot of moisture load to buildings. As long as that building, this is
true, as long as that building is actually still heated, even though no one’s in it, if it’s not
heated, then there could be issues, because you don’t have that waste heat to dry dry out the
walls. Okay, so if we look at it from the perspective of the four principal control layers of a
building assembly, which are water, air, vapor and thermal, water is more important than air,
air is more important than thermal and or air is more important than vapor, and vapor is more
important than thermal. So it’s it’s in the order of importance there, and you can see kind of
waters is rainwater, groundwater, that is the most important, that destroys buildings. It results
in mold. And the least important thermal, the installation of the of a building assembly is kind of
the one that the codes has the most to say about, and and kind of, when we talk about high
performance buildings, is kind of what, what’s referred to as an important metric, what’s your
our value of your wall assembly, though? Okay, it’s high. So it must be a good building, but not
necessarily, because that’s the lowest ranked of importance. All these four, these four principal
control layers, have one thing, one common thing in common, and that is heat and water, and
specifically latent heat, which is when it’s heat is released or absorbed in the change of a phase
between a solid, liquid and gas. So vapor is water that has evaporated, and so is water vapor.

Water is still in that form. For water to evaporate, heat needs to be added to the system and.
Heat flow is prevented through thermal insulation, through through the walls, and then air itself
carries a lot of

05:10
a lot of moisture.

05:13
So air carries a lot more moisture than than vapor diffusion through a building assembly. All
energy is heat or on its way to becoming heat. Okay, so we look at these four principal control
layers. We’ll look at water and thermal here. So water, so buildings need to dry. Buildings
naturally get wet when it rains. Water can can get in. We protect against water from
penetrating your building, but it can still come in through construction defects or failed
sealants, deteriorated materials, etc. It naturally gets comes into a building. It needs a dry so
we need latent heat for that to happen, for that energy change from a liquid water to a vapor,
to water vapor, it happens from the inside using that that energy comes from the inside using
waste heat. So when you you’re heating a building, there’s energy flow from the inside of the
building through your walls, and that helps dissipate that water and dry that that assembly, you
add more insulation that reduces it and from the outside, we have a good energy source of the
sun. Rain screens are really important to a drying to aid in drying from the outside and from the
inside. Moisture flow from the inside through the assembly. If it can adequately, adequately
move through and not condense, then it can also dry thermal control. So thermal reduces that
drying potential, because it slows the heat flow, so it slows energy so the more we insulate

buildings, the less waste heat, latent heat, can get to the building assembly and dry. So with
that in mind, for the people that say buildings need to breathe in order for the building to last a
long time. Well, the same so the it could be said, then, therefore, the buildings need to be
uninsulated, which is unpractical from a comfort perspective of the occupants. And that’s the
primary importance of a building is is for shelter and protection and comfort, looking at vapor
control. So climate specific vapor profiles are very important, depending what your climate is,
where you’re located, we want that building. We want to protect against moisture moving
through your building and condensing in the winter time, because the warm, humid air on the
inside of a building will will move through that assembly, that wall assembly, and condense. So
you want to prevent against that using Vapor retarders, but using ones that are appropriate for
your climate and application. So a building a swimming pool requires a different type of vapor
barrier, vapor retarder than, say, a single family house. So our code mandates for part nine,
single family house to be no greater than one perm, which is considered a class two vapor
retarder. So Vapor retarders prevent wetting and interstitial condensation, which is which is
great, but they also prevent drying in in one, in both directions. So they only so we want to
promote drying in the in the correct direction. So, and that’s only true for one of the seasons.
So when we pretty much guard against winter time, when we have our vapor barrier on the
warm side of the wall, and but then in the summertime, our vapor retarder, or vapor barrier, is
actually on the incorrect side, because we are hot outside, and in an air conditioning building,
it’s cool inside, and so it’s a little bit reversed. So we want to guard against we want to guard
against that and provide vapor barriers that are correct for the climate and use of the building
to maximize drawing of the assembly, because vapor barriers prevent drawing in the direction
of the vapor barrier, vapor retarder and the last one is air control. So air transports. Heat and
water, vapor and water holds a lot more energy and a lot more heat than air, four times as
much by weight and 1000 or 3000

10:16
times by volume,

10:18
so there’s far more moisture moved through air movement than vapor diffusion. So air control
is much more important. That’s why air control is much more important than vapor control. On

10:33
that on that hierarchy list

10:36
in a an example. Here is this figure. So sheet of drywall in the top is vapor diffusion movement
pushing through a third of a quart of water in the in the bottom, the same area, but with a
instead of vapor diffusion, it’s a hole, a one inch hole with a pressure differential of five Pascal,
which can be a regular amount of pressure difference that you could expect to see, and that
one inch hole could be the free area of a electrical receptacle. And so you can see 30 quarts

compared to a third of a quart. So it’s it’s 100 times greater of moisture movement, with
through air leakage than it is vapor diffusion. Summer time we have high relative humidity, and
in winter time we have low relative humidity. So if we don’t protect against air movement and
provide good continuous air control, we will have a lot of moist air coming into the building in
summer and a lot of dry air exchange, we want to guard against that for occupant comfort and
also building durability. So with that in mind, from the perspective of buildings, they shouldn’t
breathe. Buildings shouldn’t breathe.

12:03
They should be air airtight

12:06
and vapor permeable in the right direction,

12:09
with the with the right membranes. So now, for the other part, looking at the occupant part of
the statement of buildings need to breathe. We as occupants need good air, good air quality,
we need to not have pollutants in the air. And so what type of pollutants we have? We have CO
two, which is carbon dioxide. It’s a really good metric of people’s exhaust, exhaust, air so and
it’s directly related to to occupants. So 11 by 13 size office room had atmospheric carbon
dioxide increased from 500 parts per million to 1000 within 45 minutes of ventilation, cessation
and closure of windows and doors that causes and affects cognitive ability. So CO two levels
over 1000 parts per million, a study had found that they were linked to higher complaints of
headaches, fatigue and eye and throat irritation, and another one showed that poor or or no
ventilation in a bedroom with closed doors routinely exceeded 2500 parts per million and cause
signal and significant. It can be a significant in the the sleep and next day performance can be
significantly improved by increasing the clean outdoor air supply rate in the bedrooms, was
what a study found. So it’s incredibly important. Carbon monoxide co caused by incomplete
combustion, it’s odorless and can cause death. The sources are combustion appliances. So gas
furnaces, gas water heaters, fireplaces, etc, all electric buildings that also don’t have a fireplace
are unaffected by carbon monoxide. So it’s kind of a reason. One of the reasons why going all
electric is can be healthy, also for the indoor air, for the indoor indoor air, and affect the the
occupants. Another one is volatile organic compounds. So it’s that new car smell, salted
candles, have it perfumes, those aren’t necessarily good healthy smells for you, they might
smell good, but not necessarily, and more than likely, they are not good. Vocs, also includes
formaldehydes and other known cancer causing toxins and caused by off gassing building
materials. A lot of Engineer. Wood Products have formaldehydes in the glues. Insulation
products are manufactured with their binder with formaldehydes. A lot of them claim or
indicate that the formaldehydes are pretty much off gassed after the the production of the of
the insulation product, but it’s still there as part of as part of it, and remnants still might be,

might be within that material. And another one is refrigerants. Radon is really important for it’s
for indoor air quality. It’s a isotope. It’s released from soil and rock. It comes from the ground.
So it’s a number one cause of lung cancer in non smokers, and the second number and the
number two cause in smokers, it’s odorless. It takes the path of least resistance to the to the

ground surface, the ground surface so leaky basements, air leaky basements are an easy path
for radon to enter your your building. Radon levels are typically the highest in winter time
because ground cover provides a barrier, and so the path of least resistance is typically through
building basements, and that same goes from days of of high rainfall, it kind of blankets that
and provides an impermeable layer where radon levels can increase. So it’s important to
monitor or to measure radon levels in buildings, and if they are high, to provide mitigation
against them, particulate matter, so commonly referred to as pm 2.5 there’s also two point
there’s also pm 10 and pm one 2.5 is kind of the most common. It’s known as fine particles,
very small, smaller than human hair, and small enough to enter your bloodstream. There is no
known safe amount of pm 2.5 that would be healthy or acceptable for for us to breathe. So we
want as as little of it as possible. And the sources come from daily routine, things like like
cooking and combustion appliances outdoor forest, fire, smoke, etc,

17:48
humidity control.

17:51
This is important. We touched up on this about moisture sensitive materials and in hardwoods,
in buildings you don’t want to have you don’t want to have low humidity. You want to have high
humidity. It it also affects comfort and health of occupants. So there’s a bit of a comfort, an
optimum comfort zone. So ASHRAE recommends for the best performance of the building
envelope and occupant indoor air quality, I AQ of approximately 35% in the winter time. That’s
based in climate zone like Chicago, we’re a little bit colder. An Rh of 35 for our housing stock
would be a little would be wouldn’t perform very good. We would have a higher risk of
interstitial condensation, which is condensation occurring inside your wall assembly from the
warm waste air traveling through and condensing. So we’re a little bit 35% is a little bit high,
except for the really like high performance homes that are buildings that have good air
tightness and vapor control. So to guard against this, EVS ERVs, which are energy recovery
ventilation systems to provide that fresh air, it also transfers, not only recovers heat, but it
recovers some moisture, so that can reduce the moisture load in summer and also buffer it in
winter, so it’s not too drastically dry. Okay, so how do we get good indoor air quality?

19:43
Fresh air ventilation is the most obvious,

19:46
and through operable windows is a little bit difficult, because they’re not reliable, and they also
need input from people to open them and to close them. Nighttime. Be nighttime cooling. It can
it can be cool at nighttime, but if you forget to close them then some in the daytime, it can get
hot again. In the summer, it can be an issue, and it’s not reliable. So mechanical ventilation is
the best type of system. There is ERVs, which can provide that ventilation system. Controlled
and balanced, so you have the same amount of incoming air than you do exhaust air. It’s

important to know that outdoor air is not necessarily fresh, and so it needs to be filtered.
There’s pollens, pollutants, smoke, etc, the air outside air is is dirty, and so it needs to be
filtered. And so that is, that’s an important aspect from operable windows, because operable
windows can’t be filtered. So mechanical ventilation wins there too, because you can put a
ventilation or a filter with that. And all mechanical ventilation systems routinely come with with
with filter. So what type of filter typically is recommended is a MERV 11. MERV stands for the
minimum efficiency reporting value. The higher the number the better. Round MERV 13 is close
to close to HEPA, kind of on the on the same lines of HEPA, you might hear that reference and
then to control order odors and wildfire smoke, where charcoal filters can be added, included
with that, and that can help and deter against those now to ERVs and HRVs, the importance of
them, so these are done, rather than supply only or extract only. Ventilation Systems, the older
type of buildings typically in our climate, in our area, in Winnipeg, typically had exhaust only so
systems. So that would be, that would be a your kitchen exhaust coupled with your bathroom
exhaust fans, so they’re set on timers or whatever. So when you’re taking a shower or or
whatever, you can turn on your exhaust fun, and that turns on so it’s actively pulling air out,
but that air needs to be replaced, so it’s all seeping in at different locations throughout your
building. ERVs are good because ERVs and HRVs are good because they can provide controlled
and balanced ventilation and filtered they also reduce the energy penalty, which is which can
be quite high. So in our climate zone, we’re looking about about 10, 10,000 BTUs per square
foot per year, which equates to about the energy penalty of the ventilation alone, greater than
200% of the Passive House heating limit. Metric. It’s quite substantial. And in terms of dollars,

what that relates to is approximately two is about $600 per year for a typical 2000 square foot
house with with that that’s heated electrically at at 10 cents a kilowatt hour. This this
screenshot here I took from my my own personal ERV system that I have in my house, and I’ve
had it for three seasons, three winters, anyways. So it records the amount of heating that I’ve
avoided through through recovery of of energy. And so you can see I’ve saved uh, 16,000
kilowatt hours. So at 10 cents a kilowatt hour, I saved $1,600 over over three years. So we’re
three winters, so it’s very close to that $600 per year savings. Now it’s important to note that
when you’re using an ERV or HRV, your ventilation rate is is typically greater than if you don’t
have ventilation if you don’t have a controlled and balanced ventilation system, if you’re only
using extract then, then the amount of ventilation you’re getting is a lot less, but that means
your air quality is also reducing. So ERVs, HRVs, are worth it. So. Um, how else do we get good
indoor air quality? So a continuous and robust air barrier is really important. So continuous
everywhere, all the way from the foundation to the roof and through all penetrations wall
penetrations through your walls, windows, doors, etc. It’s important that improves the delivery
of the filtered fresh air and removing the stale air, it averts infiltration of pollen and smoke,
especially wildfire smoke, is becoming a lot more predominant these past summers, and it’s for
CASA to not get any better. So an improved and continuous air barrier is really important for
that and preventing those pollutants from coming inside from radon. Radon infiltrates through
the ground, and as I said before, it takes the path of least resistance. So if you have a very air
leaky building, that makes it a very easy target for it to to for it to come in through something
called stock effect,

26:13
buoyancy of air,

26:17

comfort. It affects comfort, energy efficiency, quietness and fire resilience. John Straub, which is
a building scientist and and professor at the University of Waterloo, said in one of his articles,
1/3 of the energy probably by leaks through the holes in your house. We are at a colder climate
than where he is, and so we’re likely it’s more around a it’s a at least a half, if not more,
depending on how efficient your your building is. But it’s a lot early air leakage is a lot. And
lastly, source control. So with ventilation systems

27:09
providing supplying fresh air,

27:12
filtered fresh air, outdoor fresh air to bedrooms and living areas and extracting through
kitchens and bathrooms. Methodology, has kind of changed in the high performance world,
from extracting from the kitchen hood or from the sorry, from the from the kitchen itself, and
having a research hood over your cooktop. Now the methodology is to actually provide direct
exhaust for your kitchen, kitchen exhaust fan,

27:45
but with a balanced ventilation system, there

27:47
would still be an extract zone somewhere in your kitchen, just a little bit away from where
you’re actually Cooking, so those greases don’t clog your filtration system. Source of control
also includes an active radon control system where required when it’s when it’s tested. And this
is important too, from building to buildings, not necessarily. If your neighbor has high radon or
low radon, that that you’ll you’ll be the same. Every building is different. Soil conditions are
different, and the building building shapes and air control barriers are all different. Removing
voc volatile organic compound, emitting materials are important, so synthetic carpets, using
low VOC paints prevent or low or no VOC paints manufactured wood products, chipboards. I
mean, they’re always, it’s always going to be there, like your Ikea furniture, but to be cognizant
that there’s a risk associated with these products. Is there a low VOC particle board and glues?
Possibly Yes, but most of them, they all have formaldehydes and other that voc is associated
with them and properly store cleaning chemicals, paints attached garages. Not to have
gasoline containers in your attached garages, because those are still coupled indirectly, but
coupled to your to your building, to your house. Have those in your garages, etc.

29:38
Okay, lastly, so past buildings.

29:40
What has changed? Were they any better? So ventilation with them? They was provided. It was
provided, not naturally, through the air, leaky envelopes and and operable windows, including
the commercial buildings. Um. The the office buildings, they had high exchange rate, but
energy was cheap, and so they just provided and and threw more energy at it.

30:12
Building walls were

30:13
largely uninsulated. They were either empty or solid cavities, which meant that latent there
was a high latent heat potential, and that was able to readily dry

30:25
the walls, very easily,

30:31
but obviously not comfortable and or energy efficient, and that less toxic building materials
were were pretty prevalent, including the furnishing. So wood and steel furniture back then was
now replaced with the plastic and particle board materials that we now readily see, and so off
gassing of the formaldehydes and other VOCs wasn’t common.

30:58
It wasn’t really a thing.

31:02
So older buildings weren’t also healthier. So summary, do buildings need to breathe? Short
answer is no, it’s saying is purely an excuse for carelessness air leaky buildings are poor or
strategy to protect buildings and their occupants health and comfort. If we want to maximize
durability, then we shouldn’t insulate, nor should we occupy the building which is both
unrealistic and pretty done. And remember that insulation slows heat flow, which reduces the
drying potential. So higher performance buildings require high perform higher performance
detailing, because we need better moisture management. Those buildings need higher
moisture management. So the goal controlled mechanical ventilation with the correct filtration
using ERVs and HRVs, they save significant energy. Proper distribution and design of of fresh
air and exhaust

32:13
air tight construction,

32:16
which includes providing the correct vapor profiles, the correct Vapor retarders. Poly vapor
barriers are a complete are a complete vapor barrier, and they totally prevent drawing in that
one direction. So you install that and you only, you technically only have drawing in the
outward direction to the outside, so using the highest vapor permeability material acceptable
to control vapor for your Building assembly and source control, including direct exhaust kitchen
fans and and that the Passive House and high performance methodology has changed in that
perspective, and finally, using low VOC materials and furnishings. And that is the conclusion
why buildings don’t need to don’t need to breathe.

33:25
Excellent. Well, thank you so much for all of that information you just shared there. Grant, I
don’t know if you’ve heard, but after all the wildfires that has happened in the past little while,
Canada has now the most polluted air polluted cities in North America? Is there? Like, how did
that information hit you when you heard it, or if you just heard it here for the first time?

33:47
Yeah, I’ve heard I’ve heard that before. I haven’t heard that. It’s the most but it is pretty
shocking, right? Because everyone thought that Canada is this nice northern country with
landscapes of green trees and and lakes. So yeah, it’s not it’s not great to hear. I.

00:00
So yeah, I’m Ainsley Duick from Duxton windows. I’m on the board with SBM, and I’ve been with
Duxton working for my dad for the last 10 years or so.
00:11
And my name is Al Duxton. I’m changing my name anyway. We’re we’re happy to be here
talking about what makes great Windows relative to topics that I think are particularly relevant
to sustainable SBM, and that’s what we’re going to try and focus on. Admittedly, we obviously
have a pretty biased view in certain ways, but we’re going to try and stay as objective in some
of those comments as possible. So, and even in this case, it starts off with, what is it? Pico,
00:45
yep, go ahead. So this is a pretty cool example of the efficiency Manitoba building envelope
program. And I don’t know all the details of what they had done, but I saw this post of their
before and after, which was pretty incredible. And, you know, taking a really nice opportunity to
add a lot of natural light and a high performance building envelope. So, yeah, really great.
01:15
What a big example the folks at pico architecture, which is Gail little, and I’m not sure of all
Gail, I think is the principle there, but one of the things you would notice here, which ain’t a
pointed to, was that, as the beginning of windows are not all created equal. They have a pretty
large window in here and to meet the world’s needs of both biophilic design as well as nap
structural requirements, it’s important for people to look at what that truly is, and there are
some definite differences, not just by material, but by design.
01:58
So a little overview of what we’re going to chat about today. So our history, we’ll try to get for
some of the homeowners that are online with us, some of the ideas of what makes a better
quality window. And then we’ll get a little bit more into this product specific details of you know,
what the
02:16
for the record? I might even add, Laura, I think our history is not a commercial but more a
reflection that I think will speak to itself of why we are where we are, and why we choose to do
what we do. So yeah, she’s going to turn this over because she was only helping me move that
pizza equipment, out of the way, back when she was probably 10 years old, since 19 92,000 is
when it began as a blank page, and it’s been an incredible journey. And I have to say, with all
the naysayers about Winnipeg, it has been a great place for us to live, grow up, work, do
business, build an incredible team of give or take 100 people from, I don’t know about 10
different countries, and grow in a process from a very, very humble, small, unpretentious, very
limited in size building to the facility that we’re currently in. So I find just to make a little bit of a
connection here, I had a little bit of fun with was, sometimes in the past, we’re Hey, we’re all
proud of our country, our source, what we do, and sometimes in the face of certain imported
products that were not tested or even considered to Canadian standards. I sometimes had a
little fun and changing Duxton with an umlaut above the U and it was really a reference, kind of
a way of connecting the dots, if you will, between some of the European roots of the things that
we do, whether that is tilt and turn window and door designs, whether that’s the creative
genius of the founder of our primary pultruded fiberglass lineal supplier, but in a bigger way,
also the very nature of who we are and what we do, and in a window context, I think, as you
will see in some of this, the evolution of fenestration, even in the last 1015 years, is really
significant, and it very much follows some of the needs that are there in today’s world and its
roots are many things, including even things like fenced about and seeing some of the things
that are out there. I think one of the things that differentiates places too and people now
sometimes want to talk about the durability of. Who you’re dealing with. And I think the case
that we would strongly make that picking your partner that way, if you will, becomes an
important factor to understand who the people in behind the business, who actually own the
business, run the business, and how they run the business is a very important element of what
that window system may mean in the longer term. I have never had a great love affair for
things like lifetime warranty. I have no clue what that means if somebody lives another five
years or 10 years. What I do relate to is the foundation upon which businesses are built, the
connections that are there, the important family members that are deeply vested in its long
term success. And while my grandson sitting there may not right now be contributing to the
window business right now, it’s definitely a part of who we are, and my partner here, Ainsley,
has now spent about 12 years with us, I’d go so far as to say that again, from what makes
places different, having bright, passionate, committed people With deep knowledge makes a
huge difference, and that reflects itself in something like this, where, again, this is not to fly a
particular name or business, but I do believe that in today’s world of manufacturing operations,
the work that goes into things like continuous improvement is so critically important. And the
contrast of somebody once saying, Yeah, I’m going to have somebody attend a CI course and
then we’re going to have BCI is such a bunch of BS. But because something like this takes
many years of people taking courses and putting them through yellow belts and green belts
and building, and in Toyota’s case, which is the foundation. They actually talk about the fact
that once the entire team of manufacturing people is grounded in lean or continuous
improvement, that’s a point at which that facility actually begins to function like that. And for
us, I think, like I said, the fact that we’ve been at that for six or seven years and building a
group of people with that kind of attitude, knowledge approach is really important to what
differentiates and makes a fenestration system better. Boy, you’re going to just let me run here
for a little while. So another piece that I think for us, and I think the customer, the designer, the
specifier, I have often made the comment that my humble attitude really towards people
specifying different types of windows and using them on projects, whether it’s a 30 story tower
in Calgary or something else, many of those buildings are designed for much more than a
house for five or 10 years. And so hence, again, the connection to a business that is built upon
a foundation. And this just happens to be an artist’s impression of we have a new factory
addition that’s starting in construction in about two weeks, and will further transform our
business as the city. Thank goodness finally agreed to sell us some land beside us, allowing us
to create a more efficient space.
08:40
What makes people, places, businesses, different, cuts, I think, really deeply to some of this,
the psychology of what’s behind it. And I have to say, from my family’s point of view, including
my chief partner, my wife, who says she chose fiber dust windows as our window base way
back when. And she’s partly true for sure, probably smarter than me anyway, a the roots of the
some of this goes back way back when, working with jorgastrovsky in Calgary on the Alberta
sustainable house in the 90s, an amazing guy who created, lived, walked. I remember walking
up and he’s cooking a turkey in a solar oven on his front porch. And he’s a guy that we created
very unique products for which were high, super high solar gain on a south side, a Quint pain
glass facing west. And these types of things, or, for that matter, the Airdrie Environmental
Education Center, which, again, you look closely, you’d actually see you’re in there are really, I
think, important in the definition of who and what businesses are like and which way they’re in.
Uh, forming their their approach to creating things. And I think for us, this DNA was critically
important for how we’ve approached things in the last 25 years.
10:14
So another piece that
10:17
I would say in our roots in Winnipeg and Manitoba were some of the really important
connections that we have been able to work with over many years. I very much recall people
like Dennis Quan and Dudley from Prairie architects, some of whom George Heath Winnipeg
school division, a variety of people number 10 architecture, but in this case, Prairie who worked
on a number of different kinds of projects. And in this case, this building had straubiel portions
to it. It had some very unique fenestration to it. Probably had one of the very first circular
fiberglass window frames in it. And these kinds of connections, I think again, have a super big
effect on organizations, whether they’re manufacturing windows like this or others, because
that connection and keeping an open two way conversation really makes a difference in looking
at in this case, there were details about wall depths and perimeter trims and really important
things that I will always be grateful for. So another piece that makes, I think, a really important
difference for people looking at what makes products for buildings, houses, schools, towers,
different, unlike some things, maybe Tesla can be fixed remotely from wherever. A piece of
glass can’t be replaced remotely. A piece of hardware can’t be fixed remotely. And so really, I
believe the best success, in many ways, comes in the scenarios where, regardless of where you
are, if who you’re dealing with has people in the vicinity who have knowledge, experience of
working with what you do. And I have to say again, from day one in our case, that has been a
really important element, where these distributor partners who have worked with us, some of
them for 1015, years, have a great deal of knowledge about how to fix, repair, install. And as
sometimes people will say, 50% of a Windows installation. So the higher quality people
experience, people that like that, even a guy like screwy Louie at the bottom there. He’s up in
far northern heaven, Alberta anyway. Okay, your turn.
12:55
So in the theme of the conference and the myth busting are all windows created equal. So we
wanted to show some more local projects as we’re going through this. So this is by roost
custom builders. This was a deep energy retrofit where the homeowner was completely
committed to Lindsay Robinson making sure that the building envelope was, you know, totally
the proper blanket to keep all that energy inside and not waste it. So anyways, we’ll go through
a few different considerations for what makes a better quality investment.
13:41
So I have to say, from my perspective, the wise one in the house, my wife, the lawyer, knew
something about what I had done for my first 13 years in the window business at Wilmar. And
some of that was exposed to a real variety of frame types, vinyl wood, copper clad wood,
fiberglass, etc. And so when we she crazily let me loose. We really wanted to say in terms of,
where is the long term headed for the window and door industry, where is the right direction
that we feel things are going to evolve, rather than the past. And we felt very strongly that the
characteristics of this material, which was actually invented in Winnipeg, Canada, and then
picked up in a few other places, whereby 65% of the content of the frame is actually glass,
actually just a couple different variations. It’s more of an engineered material frame, if you will,
where the requirements for what that system does, in terms of its structural abilities, how it
functions, are in many ways determined up front by what that design does. And in addition to
which the. It has so many characteristics where, especially nowadays, where many of the
clients are focused on things like that, lovely, biophilic see the views larger windows. As as
glass gets not only bigger, but larger. And as triple, 345, mil, glass becomes ever a bigger
issue. It becomes, structurally and engineering wise, an ever important point of the
compatibility of the frames characteristics. And you can think about fiberglass and glass. Are
materials that expand and contract roughly at the same rate. And so the logic of what’s there,
not the name, the logic is there.
15:43
So in terms of the quality of living space, it was actually great that grant spoke right before us.
You know, VOCs and what are you putting into your house? And all the plastics this Living
Building Challenge or declare program is very, very close to that issue. And so it’s it’s a pretty
extensive process where you have to figure out every ingredient that goes into your window all
the way through the supply chain, and then they have certain number of band ingredients,
including PVC, polyvinyl chloride. The chloride is the part that throws it into one of the banned
substances. So we had to make sure that, you know, none of these ingredients were part of the
product to qualify for the job. A little bit about longevity of the product. So Al was explaining
how fiberglass is made, which is why we decided to only offer fiberglass products. But some
things that pictures that we’ve seen from others in the field or or job site visits is that, you
know, colors or or softer materials can start waving, and so the seal against the glass gets
compromised. Sometimes when you make hybrid style windows, those materials don’t work
well together, and so it’s very common to put metal clotting onto other products, like wood, like
PVC, but if the expansion and contraction rates are very different, it becomes more difficult to
make sure that they hold to each other over many years as the temperature swings. And then
finally, the this is more even about the energy efficiency, but you can see one of those mullions
was cut in half as they were replacing windows, and they found, I don’t know, 3u channels
inside that mullion, and that’s not always properly covered in the published thermal
performance values. So you’re trying to make sure you get a good value out of that.
17:54
So to pick up one of the points Anthony made here. It’s one of the topics that comes out
inevitably at some point in time, either right at the end, ooh, what about the cost? And this one
on the left is it’s actually a window, a little close up window, of a condo, that the windows were
seven or eight years old at that point in time, and they were approaching us to find a way to
replace the windows in there. Anybody knows anything about condos? That means now we’re
talking cash call to do a fairly major reinvestment in a building and or, as I know, that’s never
the intention of a place like that, to put up something. And I’ve often made a little bit of fun of
this scenario, if you want to talk about, well, is the fiberglass window system going to cost you
20 or 30% more, but maybe it lasts quite a bit longer, and that cash call for Window
Replacement isn’t going to be there. So those are some of the things and reasons why, when
we look at something and saying, wait a minute, what are the differences? What makes
something longer? What does make something structurally more stable, and you try and
position it to add maximum value. So another part of the puzzle here, for our point of view in
selection and choice and focus, obviously, the focal point on energy efficiency in our
environmentally friendly world has been a big, big piece of the puzzle for quite a while now,
and from our perspective, when we see our frame and systems compared to different situations
different materials, there’s obviously great aluminum window systems out there. But one of the
challenges of working with aluminum and fenestration is it’s a highly, highly conductive
material, and that conductivity means it’s quite difficult sometimes to get those U values down
to a lower level, or to eliminate frost condensation in winter peg in places like ours, and it’s
another huge factor for us. Us in terms of believing that the combination of features makes
differences in Windows systems, but we’re looking for durability performance, after which we
also add other features to it.
20:13
So a little bit about color, finish. You know, it seems like, Oh, we’re just talking about thermal
performance, but the reality is, we want something to last as long as possible, and that
includes, how does it look? How does the finish hold? How is the glass performing? So just a
kind of a concept of what’s been out there over the years. Wood needs more maintenance. It is
a great product in terms of its environmental characteristics, but it needs more maintenance.
PVC is tricky in the sense of color application. It’s just not ideal for when you want color,
whether it ends up getting painted in black or oil. Wrap just creates some challenges. Also,
black absorbs a lot of heat, which becomes more difficult if the material is already intent on
expanding and contracting, or if that frame isn’t stable around the glass, then you’re a little bit
more likely to see fog, you know, seal failure sooner. And then the last couple in there,
aluminum has quite a reliable finish when it’s prepped properly, and lots of established coatings
over the years. And then finally, fiberglass has a really porous surface so it it adheres to paint
really well. And over time, the coatings have evolved quite a bit. So these happen to be
architectural specifications, but the aluminum has the same concept. So in our business, we
cheat, and we call it the level three, four and five. And so, for simplicity, for simplicity, yeah,
21:59
but the level three is sort of, by the way,
22:01
that those numbers are established by IG Matt.
22:09
So the architectural ratings for Level three is a one year until that swatch goes from the
reference color to that swatch down below, or after five years. So it takes much longer, or after
10 years, to make that swatch change. And so over time, the fiberglass industry has has kind of
moved step by step towards that full six to five rating. We were just looking at some jobs in the
queue today in the six to five, which was finally a bit more commercially available, and and
we’re voluntarily move moving the notch on some of those, because we want the finish to last
as long as the rest of The system.
22:59
No, I think it’s
23:01
important for us, for people to
23:05
given a talk about Mythbusters and window types. This happens to be a building that in Regina
called Rainbow towers that Crozier Kilgore, one of the best known Manitoba building envelope
engineering firms, I believe. And this, I think, this building was acquired by globe out of
Winnipeg. This is probably six or eight years ago. It was an interesting case where they
specifically went through to develop details on and that happened, I was fairly close to some
elements of this project, including an installer that we had dealt with for just about 20 years
now, and in a particular case like this, it was quite interesting, because the old single pane
aluminum sliding windows, quite large ones, were drafty as heck, just for a variety of reasons.
And I happened to run into some of the tenants, and it was quite interesting how, after they
went through this difficult process, how they really felt the improvements in these places. So
Nancy touched on, and I won’t bore you with the details here, but we have talked about how I
believe the DNA of a business is an important element what happens, and I will say, in a case
like this, some of the things that define us. I to me having been in the Window Door business
for almost 40 years, and having a I’m going to call it a forward leaning Look at this. We never
sat still. And about 12, 1314, years ago, I was lucky to run into a great engineer with great
experience, and we were able to take very important elements of what we had learned over the
last X years. And. And very significantly improve our product offering. And again, what makes
products different? This case, the material was something like 30 35% more material, tougher,

more durable, longer lasting, and able to do bigger windows. Apparently, we got to keep
moving. So we’re going to keep this moving pretty quickly. You’d have to look at a lot of detail
in here to really, truly understand this. But the contrast in here, at the end of the day, is,
whereas American window companies tend to have a lovely Value Engineering, cut costs, cut
costs, we went the opposite way. Or let’s again, myth buster. What makes Windows different,
not us is I would say that when people look at whether it’s fixed or operating windows, what
makes them tougher, stronger, and some of that is better material, thicker walls, better
designed to carry heavy triple pane windows, etc. And some of those details are very easily
found on websites such as certain companies have substantial websites with all kinds of
information. And I do believe certain companies in fiberglass, such as the one that starts with a
D, has enormous amounts of info. So another really important consideration, what makes myth
buster? You could find quite a few different window types out there that really were never
designed for a true high performance triple pane system. And those of us in this bit, in the
design engineering types of understand that a certain size of air spacing is important to get
there. This visual I will just cut to the chase, compares where we have an ability to do a one
and a half inch for some companies, versus and one and a quarter. And in today’s world, when
you go to ever larger windows with 456, and even eight mil glass, you just can’t get it unless
you have the right people to work with, or indoor systems where they’ve got or indoor systems.
Yeah.
27:07
So this is a little bit about what kind of glass can you put into that frame,
27:13
and what makes a company different. Because this is so the
27:17
dual pane windows, for example, are still allowable in the building code, particularly in
commercial buildings. So at a 1.5 overall U value, you know, you’re really not nothing to brag
about. You might be able to get that a little bit lower, but the technology to go to a triple pane
with one or two low E coatings can drive your u value way, way down and keep that building
much more insulated, what we would call a high performance product. But then you can even
make some pretty substantial jumps after that and and this is, I don’t know if you want to talk
to these, because this is your
28:00
okay, like in a nutshell, again, Mythbusters. What makes people different? It’s not a mystery. I
would say our background history connections, work we’ve done just leans into that in a
significant way, because evacuated glass, such as the bottom right, is now back on the picture
a little bit because a couple of North American firms are back playing with it. Has never really
been totally taken there, but 23 years ago, ish, we were asked by an Alaska customer to do a
package like that, and we did, and we learned something, because the glass lasted its vacuum
about one year kind of cut our enthusiasm at that stage. On the left of that light zone is a really
quite intriguing product from Edmonton gentleman that has always been dedicated to
innovation. He has a really incredible range of products, from triple to quads to quince to six
lights with films that create extraordinary performance. And he claims something like 50 year
life, but it is quite expensive, and it doesn’t fit into a lot of circumstances because it needs
frame depths. But we have done a number of different things with it. And then top right is
something that’s newish, kind of getting into a commercialized phase in the US, as Biden and
company are pouring money into North American products, quad thin glass is basically taking
thin Gorilla Glass from computer, phones and such, and through Some unique technical
elements, are able to ramp up from a triple to a quad and create more performance at a fairly
reasonable cost, and we have done work with that also. So if you want me to just quickly cut
into this one aids, I gather we’re running out of time. Myth Buster. Dollars. In some cases, some
of the school areas, new construction schools, retrofits, are definitely looking for alternatives. In
some of those cases, they have wanted something more durable than vinyl. In some of those
cases, they wanted something that was more energy efficient than aluminum, and so we have
done quite a bit of work going back to George Heath, Winnipeg school division, where we had
did some older schools, and more recently, in Saskatchewan, we’re doing some stuff with
fiberglass curtain wall. And they also push us in doing things like security screens, where
they’re trying to stop broken glass, a topic that’s kind of difficult in some ways, but I personally
believe that one of the weaknesses in fenestration in North America is the whole swinging door
thing. We have this capacity to just focus on low cost, and I think a lot of people that are closer
to design implementation work, look at this. In Europe, there are far more door systems out
that are almost double the thickness of ours, that are far more effective at air tightness. And
it’s a topic that we have spent a fair bit of time on, and again, on Mythbusters. I think some of
the things that will differentiate people is their willingness to kind of lean into this and come up
with some better solutions. Same topic, the are, there are a couple of ways of enhancing
performance, and it happens, let’s say, in this particular case, that door has a glazing system
that allows about a one and 5/8 inch thick triple. So it means it actually gives a swinging door
like that a rating for ENERGY STAR, whereas some don’t, because, very simply, the pocket of
glass in there is too thin, and they can only get a dual or a very skinny triple in which doesn’t
work well. And additionally, ironically, back to Europe, they have done quite a bit of work on
things like multi point locking systems, and I’ve got some personal experience with this on a
certain scenario where these locking systems, they, what they do, in an amazing way, is they
really, really lock that door panel against the weather stripping so it can’t work, or allow frost
and air To get in. What makes Myth Busters Windows different. I believe some of those
companies take their investments in design process and their investments in listening to the
marketplace, and in this case, we happen to be lucky to live in a city called Winnipeg. We are
proud elements of that, and there are numerous projects in the city where people are looking
for a heritage look that it reflects modern technology. And so the project on the left is on just
off the waterfront where the city people like Rena and company have very insistently wanted to
have a more reflective kind of product in there, and so the bottom left image is a before and
after, if you will. And I think the execution is remarkably good. And not only that, they are much
more airtight than the old leaky wood double hunks
33:42
I just let you talk about roost again.
33:45
So one of the local contractors, roost has done some pretty extensive envelope upgrades, and I
wanted to show a couple of these and and we touched base with the CO owners, Darren and
Jonathan, to see what they had to say in terms of fenestration. So the top left was a deep
energy retrofit. And then the bottom right, they were doing an envelope upgrade with adding
two inches of rigid over the existing so, so yeah, some of the comments they had were that
they they do a lot of big glazing, and you can see that from the pictures. So they wanted
something that was more rigid. They want something that’s easy to install so the frames stay
nice and straight. You don’t have to spend quite so much time shimming them to get straight
lines. Yeah, and they’re, and they’re ultimately going for something that’s that’s going to be a
long term solution for their clients. They’re trying to offer a long term package that will last
before you. Leave
34:50
this just for two seconds. The interesting thing, I think, on on this topic again, I could say this
many, many times we have gone on. Way to work with people like this or Peter amarong and at
Edmonton, who specialize in many different types of things, like deep retrofit. And I think we
learn a lot along the way. And one of the mythbuster elements is some familiarity of what do
we bring to the party? So on more of a commercial side, if you will. This is in an evolving field, if
you will, where I believe the officials have realized that just to have a metal window as a
requirement a doesn’t necessarily make sense, because the testing they’ve done doesn’t
reflect the realities. And secondly, sometimes a compromise in performance and u values
versus that. So there’s been in the NBC 2020, a very substantial change in what’s going on,
where there’s much more of an acceptance of a variety of windows into so called combustible
situations. This happened to be a project in Winnipeg and stairwells where we worked quite
closely with somebody to develop solutions for that that would pass their
36:13
evaluations, if you will.
36:18
So now in the new NBC 2020, code, this has just been implemented in Manitoba in January. So
So now in the new NBC 2020, code, this has just been implemented in Manitoba in January. So
it’s been a conversation with our industry and designers to now design subseal drainage, under
mold windows and all sorts of other conditions. So the the this kind of brings in a whole new
world of of design details. And I should say, this hasn’t been so new to us, because BC had their
leaky condo crisis, they learned a lot from that. A lot of the detailing comes from their
experience the IRC research of Canada, somehow, they did all sorts of studies about what’s an
effective installation detail for the long term, and then finally, probably because of the
proximity, Alberta has also adopted a lot of these practices over the years, So it’s been familiar
to us, but to the Manitoban market, it’s not. And the whole point is that a face seal means that
you’re sealing the window right at the flange, like at the outermost point of the window,
whereas a rain screen, it’s kind of like your wall cladding system, you’re shedding most of the
water on the outside. But you know that somewhere, somehow, something’s going to creep
through over the years. And so you have another barrier grant, called it redundancy in one of
his presentations, is that you now, what’s your redundancy? What’s your backup plan? And so
that’s why the primary seal and the air barrier has now shifted to the interior of the window,
and then there’s either concealed or visible drainage from the rough opening out and and in
Manitoba, there’s already quite a few examples because of Crozier Kilgore, Taylor Lee is the top
picture there, designed by bldg, their owners, shindiko, have been really interested in the
longevity of their buildings, because they’re owners of it. They’re not trying to, you know,
offload something. They want this building to last as long as possible. So that’s why they
brought on the building envelope consultant and then that bottom picture there, 2080 Pembina
was a building envelope retrofit by them. And the differences, they didn’t install them the same
way. One of them was drained under the nailing fin that was on the new build. And then on the
retrofit, they had gaps on the exterior, culking about an inch large.
39:07
So Ainsley mentioned that,
39:09
I think it’s kind of interesting how these elements of Bill of buildings and stuff evolve over a
course of time. And it’s pretty clear that the adoption of different types of menstruation
installation, and again, I would lean into this one in the context of we’ve been almost from the
beginning, 20 some years ago, been doing work in Alberta, connecting with architects and
building envelope engineers and they, in our experience, going back probably five, six years
ago, a range of 20 to 30 story towers, for example, in both Calgary and Edmonton, where the
building envelope engineers have been very clearly, crisply adopting things where there’s a
very. Definitive stop on the interior to seal air and water. And it’s kind of even for an old dog
like me to begin to more clearly understand that when you have negative pressure on the
interior, which is completely sealed off, it can’t suck moisture into the system. And there’s
some really important piece to this, never mind, such as a place like Chateau Lake Louise,
which probably everybody’s been at, RJC, went to quite a bit of trouble to work with the owner,
to come up with a technique where 90% of the work, 95% of the work, is done from the interior,
so they don’t disrupt these wealthy holiday people, vacation people, whereby they’re not
putting scaffolding and all kinds of crap up there, and they’re chipping away at putting venting,
large venting windows, Myth Busters. What’s different if you have a window that has increased
material, tougher material, better designs that allows you to build a slightly bigger, somewhat
bigger venting window that doesn’t disrupt views, but gives you air tightness performance, and
those are some of the myth busters. I do believe that a topic that is going to become an ever
bigger issue, and much like some other things, the Lower Mainland Vancouver, City of
Vancouver seems to be leading some of this charge. They already are insisting on, I think,
building permits to include some reference to embodied carbon, etc. They’re trying to figure
out what is there, and once they understand it, then they’re going to start forcing people to do
certain things. And so again, I think that what’s a myth buster in terms of leaning into this stuff
and trying to understand and it comes up in many different ways. UBC somehow has done a
fair bit of research on some of this. One of those was earlier referred to as the durability of
lifespan of fenestration, which, you know, I love that quote Peter Amerongen from Edmonton,
who does all kinds of stuff, says my fiber gust canoe is more than 50 years old. It’s partly why I
believe in the durability of a fiber gust window frame, because I had came from a conversation I
had with him about embodied carbon, because we were discussing what happens, and how do
you consider that? Because if the thing is going to last a long time, then maybe that’s truly part
of it, and that’s over and above that quote in the middle there, fiberglass windows have the
potential to reduce the embodied carbon emissions of buildings compared to aluminum and
PVC frame windows. Myth Buster.
42:47
So that brings us to a close, and last shout out is to Sun certified builders. They had done this
quite a few years ago already, but they were really clever about using south facing solar gain to
bring warmth to the building during the winter. So, yeah, yeah, with the overhangs, right? So
you can kind of see in that picture how, how those overhangs are quite large and protecting
those windows. So smart design is a is a big part of, you know, good window design as well.
43:22
Hey, I hope that hereby, we have tried to somewhat dispassionately focus on, you know, you’re
43:32
never dispatched,
43:33
not totally. But
43:36
anyway, I hope there’s some balance and common sense and reference to you know, what
makes things uniquely different and better, maybe in consideration? Laura,
43:49
Hi, yes. Thank you so much for all of that. We’ve hit our four o’clock time and so we don’t really
Hi, yes. Thank you so much for all of that. We’ve hit our four o’clock time and so we don’t really
have time for questions right now, but I’m so curious about waste, about a few other little
things, so maybe we’ll have to continue this conversation at another time. Laura,
44:05
can I just quickly I see Pete DeGraff is on here, and there’s a few core people in the Winnipeg or
the Manitoba marketplace that did some very unique things that were the forerunners of
passive coming back from Europe, and Pete was actually one of them that worked with another
guy in Winnipeg. So someday, if you want to see a host in places like this, they did some of the
things that now I don’t know how many years, 3040, years later, Pete, why don’t you speak up?
When did you build your house,
44:42
you’re muted.
44:45
Pete, you can just unmute yourself for sure. Say hi. Pete,
44:52
uh, 7636 1976
44:58
give give us two seconds. Pete, give us two seconds of what did you do with that house that
was so unique and then, ahead of its time,
45:08
solar heat south facing.
45:12
All the windows were on the south side, few of them on the north side. Homemade solar
heating system, air, and it was an air system. Now we’ve got a heat pump. Double wall
construction, triple glaze windows.
45:29
I heard your wife saying triple glaze windows, yeah, yeah. Well, it’s Mel got Duxton Windows on
it. Yes. Oh no, sorry about that. Laura, no,
45:41
no. That’s why we do the call this way is so that there’s a sense of community. Like one of the
things I always find interesting is that we’re talking to people who have so much knowledge as
well, and so we’re often like questions. Sometimes I just want to be like comments, additions to
the presentation.
45:55
So this is great. Thank you for that, Jonathan.
45:57
Jonathan is also on from roost. I saw Jonathan. You can unmute yourself. I He is, I think the
roost guys are. They should also be given, I think, a lot of credit for being some of the leaders
in our community. They are doing deep retrofit stuff in really innovative ways. And I have to say
that this is my comment of covering Western Canada to some degree. It’s harder to find that in
Manitoba than it is in Alberta right now. So Jonathan, are you there? Can’t hear you. Unmute.
46:35
Might have left already fun. Oh, crap. Oh, sorry. I shouldn’t have been like. I shouldn’t have
been like, ramping up time. I should have been like, comment time, but that’s okay.
46:47
Drinky. Drink time. Laura, aha, well,
46:50
we’re definitely continuing this conversation, not only next week, same time, same place, but
also on the 24th we’re going to be gathering in person in Winnipeg, for those of you who are in
the region, and let’s figure out how we can do some of these things to bring more
47:03
minutes. Do you have two more minutes? I’m curious to hear a few comments from some of the
observers, listeners. What do they see or like or don’t like is that absolutely
47:13
people want to stick around a little bit extra. That’s fine by me. Obviously, if people need to
leave, they can do that. But yeah, if there’s somebody, you can either drop your comment in
the chat or raise your hand if you’d like to
47:26
boytech, come on.
47:29
Al Ainsley, where you you talked about some high performance doors, those thicker slab doors.
Yeah. Are you guys looking to put those into production? Where is what’s innovative coming
from you guys,
47:45
we’ve done
47:46
a few different things along that line, Grant, as you know, and we, I went to fence about some
years ago, which led to us importing some of them. Unfortunately, the demand for that
marketplace seemed very limited, and so that was really six, seven pre covid years ago. I, in
my mind, have no doubt that the timing is getting closer. Grant and we without disclosing
corporate secrets. I think if one as you know, Grant, you build your business based upon certain
principles and ideas, and I do believe that’s, that’s something we will need to deal with. You
know,
48:29
yeah, like the one we showed we have carried, but it is imported. And so the serviceability, lead
time, style options, costing are just limited. And so we are looking at some other alternatives to
have more of a homegrown solution with the same, same principles.
48:46
In the short term, the things that we have done is, is incorporate thicker, higher performance
triple glass in some of them better, really active locking systems that ensure that things can’t
work and get leaky, etc, right? So I think it comes in stages, quite frankly. I mean, the more
aware people, I would say nowadays, are more willing to put a little bit more money into it. So
it’s trending in that direction. And even in sliding doors grant, we some 567, years ago, realized
that what was out there just wasn’t working, and we invested some money in newer products.
And most of what’s there is really a relatively recent vintage, because as people were shifting
into black heavy triples, it had to be slightly different. Other questions, I’m really curious on
feedback. I honestly Laura, so while we’re all waiting to have a drink,
49:47
is there anybody else you can raise your hand or just unmute yourself?
49:56
Not sure how you phrase the question, necessarily, but I’ll. At my ignorance, because I’m based
out here on the West Coast in BC, and what we saw when people were adopting the step code
was builders slamming on more insulation, more insulation ceiling, more installations on walls.
And the company I worked for property, it started out because there’s, I love the analogy the
founder uses is basically people were putting on a winter coat and wearing, you know, swim
trunks, right? Like you’re going to be cold because you’re using the cheapest Windows you can
buy.
50:30
That’s a really good, yeah, that’s a good phrase.
50:33
And I wonder you mentioned politely that your product was a little bit more expensive than
other options, so it does allow extra insulation. What are the building code changes around
energy efficiency in Manitoba? And how does that sort of and how does your product match
with that trend and kind of keep a total building as a system cost down? Do you sort of have
ways of looking at that, right? Because it’s like, yeah, you’re putting more money up front, but
you’re getting better performance down than better performance down the road, but at the
same time, can they trade off other different options, right? That to avoid
51:07
so I think I really appreciate that, Steve, because I think that I can see the window behind you is
not the smallest window either, right?
51:15
I wish this was my background. This is a fake background.
51:20
Okay, so that, because, quite frankly, and you know this, it sounds like the reality step code
and Winnipeg, due to the past Conservative government did nothing, it went backwards, maybe.

And so we have a really mixed bag here, quite frankly. I mean, residential has a mix of
some triple, some dual. Even in commercial. There’s no pressure, really, yet, and which is
stupefying, because, like, why are we exploring crazy, expensive options when we can’t even,
you know, incorporate so from our perspective, just to cut to the chase, or again, we’re trying
to avoid that naming, from a myth busting point of view, I do believe that if a person considers,
what does your frame do? How does that accommodate? Not only that, is your frame designed
to accommodate high performance components such as bigger triples and stuff, because we
way back when opened it up all the way to a one and 50, almost a two inch OD, because it was
a Quint pain, heat mirror, and we initially thought that meant nothing. But once you start
getting to six mil triples, all of a sudden, when you need air spaces, you need the space. So I
think, and hence, I don’t know what you how much of the presentation you caught, but I do feel
our interaction with many different components of architecture, building, envelope suppliers,
we try and learn from them, and we test stuff. And like even now, the evacuated glass stop
seems to be bouncing around again, and we’re trying to make sure that we’ve today,
somebody talked about photovoltaic glass for the first time I hadn’t heard about in 1015, years
in a school project. So I love that piece. You know, there’s this vibrancy to it. And when you
hear a guy like Pete talk about a house he built in 76 with solar gain before your Germany
thought they knew everything, right?
53:15
Yeah, no, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting. Cool. No, thank you for that. And sounds like, you know, part
of these things are the technology and what’s capable, what people are capable of doing, and
then part of it is obviously just waiting on regulatory pressures to kind of raise the minimum
bar, right? And it sounds like, probably, on this call, there’s a lot of preaching to the choir on
the need for for higher regulatory minimums to kind of encourage what’s possible sooner,
53:43
but even there, if I may, and I don’t know your practice or exactly what you do, but it does
seem like certain elements of the Lower Mainland marketplace has been shifting to higher
performance window frames, if I may say so. You know, a certain company was starting with a
C word, not a D word. Seemingly, have done some stuff out there, you know, so, but we have
quite recently begun doing more work in the Okanagan and the Lower Mainland, and hence
there’s more feedback. Fantastic.
54:22
No, there’s, there’s certainly a push on, and it’s, it’s surprising. I think I was recently, there’s
like a, we’re now to, like 100 passive houses as residential houses in in the Lower Mainland,
which is a shockingly, you know, seems like now there’s some techniques, but it’s, it’s gaining
momentum, but slowly, right? But how do we kind of increase that pace of adoption?
54:43
54:43
Yeah, and another fascinating piece, I think that that’s a real massive gap, is, if you want to talk
about deep retrofit, and people say, Oh, 75% of our building stock exists, and most of it is
under standard, and most of it will need to have, you know, as. Some substantial upgrades. I
don’t know about you, but I have a hard time believing. How many people are going to dump
2030, $50,000 into upgrading their buildings voluntarily? 23 200,000
55:13
much larger? Yeah,
55:14
I think. And it’s interesting, when I was talking to a builder out here in Vancouver, where the
city of Vancouver is, they like to be aggressive on things, and they’re pretty aggressive on, you
know, if you spend $50,000 now, you got to insulate your foundation. And the the downside of
this, that this builder was quite honest about, was you drive people to the black market. It’s
like, Well, hey, I want to put granite countertops in. If putting my granite countertops in, mean,
I now have to spend $40,000 insulating my foundation just not going to get a building permit
Right. Like, I’ll just, it’s a nobody maybe wants to say those things. But if you tie some of those
required upgrades for energy efficiency to things that people want to do for esthetic reasons,
you maybe create, you know, too high of a barrier, and people just start, yeah, cheating a little
bit. So like, there’s a, you know, there’s
56:07
a fine line in there, right?
56:08
There’s a fine line. I was actually talking to someone I live in East Vancouver, and they sort of
said, Watch whenever the city goes on strike and everybody knows the building inspectors on
around, that’s where all the like, visible gets done.
56:23
I have to give, I have to give Vancouver a shout out, Steve, because in 2019 we were doing,
finally, a zipping trip through the Scandinavian on bicycles and all that crap. I was in a hotel, I
think, in Copenhagen or something, and on TV in freaking Scandinavia. Was a an extended
article about the Lower Mainland. Chris Higgins, green Vancouver. And I thought, yeah, be
collected, right? Isn’t that amazing? Crazy.
56:50
The tree huggers came out there.
The tree huggers came out there.
56:54
Awesome. Laura, I don’t want to take up all the time. I’ll turn it back over to you, because I
think it’s
57:00
no problem. I mean, if people are willing to stay like, that’s what we’re here, we’re here to have
the conversations. So this is great. And as I said, we’ve built conversation into the program, but
it’s not until the third day when they can be in person, happy to have conversations online. But
we all know that they’re a little bit better when we’re actually together. So if there’s nobody
else that I see jumping forward
57:26
or listening, you
57:27
got to give them a chance to unmute themselves.
57:33
Maybe they’ve all gone away to get their drink
57:39
anyway. Pete, in case you’re gone and sleeping or something. It was very nice chatting with
you, and I hope you’re very special. House continues to be a great place for you. Yeah, we
57:50
still lose yours. Thank you,
57:53
boy, tech, I can’t hear you. Good, good.
57:59
57:59
You know I was. I think that I was the only one, not many people, was investing when i i started,
30 years ago, build the extensive renovation expansion on my house, which I’m here right now.
58:19
Boy tech, by the way, is an architect in Winnipeg who I think may have been born in Poland. I’m
guessing, right, yes, yeah,
58:28
yeah. We emigrated from Poland 87
58:32
and we built the house, and I put the triple glaze windows
58:39
at 1990 and 19,
58:43
and because I want to invest in the in the future, and the people were telling me to I’m
throwing money, don’t, don’t throw them money in somebody’s house. I said, What? What do
you mean? Somebody’s you know, because that was the real estate agent who came few years
later asking me if I’m selling this house anyway. I’m still happy there wasn’t Daxton windows.
That was Wilmar windows, wooden clad windows.
59:18
Oh, forgive you today.
59:21
But you know, in the cottage, as you know, I have, I have Daxton triple glaze as well. And my
cottage is like glass box. At least half of the living room is has four walls with glass.
59:37
Yeah, I kind of remember that’s great. And that thing we didn’t talk about for a second, boytech
and Laura was, I have some painful history to some of this boy tech, where, some years ago in
my wellmar history, there were triple pane glass being made with what was called squiggle
my wellmar history, there were triple pane glass being made with what was called squiggle
spacers, which were supposed to be nice, warm edge, long lasting, but they proved and. Not to
be long lasting. They were kind of a semi disaster. And there are now people out there making
warm edge glass, which has a 20 year limited warranty. So Myth Busters, they don’t all have to
be something that doesn’t last very long, and that’s something that, again, in terms of looking
for value. So sorry Deb, I was just thinking of that triple pane glass. Boy deck, no,
1:00:24
you, you’re right, because I, unfortunately, I have 222, set of Windows. I was doing in stages,
yeah, yeah. And the second, second phase of the windows here I was, has this spacer, super
spacer supposed to be means I get to replace quite a bit of field unit
1:00:52
in the next one, next one you want to replace? You come see me, because I’ll give you
something that’ll maybe last longer, and you’ll be happy. And in fact, and you’re in your loyalty,
I’ll donate that piece of glass. Okay,
1:01:08
okay, I will keep you.
1:01:13
I will remember that.
1:01:17
Amazing, amazing. Well, thank you. All right. Well, if there’s nothing else, I don’t see anybody
putting in the chat or raising their hand or anything. So one more time, I’ve got the feedback
form if people want to tell us what they think we are doing this all again next week. So if we
could do a little bit better, in your opinion, let us know. And other than that, have a great rest of
your day. Thank you everybody. We can only do this because you all participate. Thanks
Ainsley and Al for sharing.
1:01:51
Yeah, we really appreciate the opportunity we’ve had to mix engage and discuss things that
hopefully keeps things moving forward. Yeah,
1:02:02
absolutely. We hope you that you’ll join us again on the 24th for the more discussions. And let’s
absolutely. We hope you that you’ll join us again on the 24th for the more discussions. And let’s
figure out how to bring more sustainable building to Manitoba. Let’s, uh, let’s have them talking
about us on Scandinavia television. All right, have a great night, everybody. Bye. Bye.

00:00
Much great. So yeah, my name is Robin walk. I manage a group called market transformation
at BC Hydro, and I’m the Vice code covid, Chair of the energy step Code Council, which then
morphed into the national tier, tier code. And so Laura asked me to talk a little bit about what
happened here in BC, and what might be transferable for you in Manitoba, as you’re looking to
ratchet your building code up through the tiers. So there’s a report that I put together back in
June 2019 that’s available on the web if you wanted to check it out, that goes through a lot of
what I’m going to talk about in more details. And there’s also, I’ve done a couple of podcasts, so
there’s one at the end, if you again, if you want to hear and learn more. So here’s some slides.
I’m just going to start with some slides that I borrowed from a builder who was doing a
presentation back in 2018 and here’s what he had, hope you guys are mad men fans by 2032,
every builder in BC will face a simple choice, build like passive house or build somewhere else.
Are you ready? And at the time that seemed like pretty ambitious like setting that that that
vision out. But we really are midway through a remarkable market transformation. This is not
what we look like in BC, but anybody who likes Mad Men, there you go. Since 2019 we’ve just
seen a transformation of our building stock, with 1000s and 1000s of buildings getting built,
which are at different tiers of the tier code, so everything from single family through to multi
family in all different parts of the province, warm and cold laneway houses as well. Triplex,
we’ve got gentle density multiplexes now happening in BC. We can get those done also at the
top steps of the tier code, marketed as green, there’s some indigenous projects as well, large
scale projects, community centers, etc, etc. Actually, Laura, can you see my screen, or is some
of that blanked out because of the top the Zoom messaging?
02:18
I can see it. Okay.
02:19
Is that the case for other people?
02:21
Yeah, okay. For Maya, I’ve got it blacked out, so I just want to make sure everyone got it. So
Yeah, okay. For Maya, I’ve got it blacked out, so I just want to make sure everyone got it. So
here’s the tier code. And of course, there’s the there’s the part nine, the small housing one, a
large housing, a large building one, my understanding is you guys would like me to focus on the
on the small housing one for this presentation. So here’s the tier code. And this is BCS pathway.
So we worked on what we called the BC energy step code back in 2018 and really we saw the
BC building code change, and we set targets for that change for 2024, 2027 and 2032 what we
thought was like, let’s let’s see like, when could we build like passive? When can we build net
zero energy? Ready? And it was determined that for us, it would take that time frame, knowing
our building stock, etc. So we said 2032 and then we worked well, what would be that transition
between tier five, four and three. And so this is what we came up with. Tier Two, by the way,
was a bit of a red herring, one that we ended up sticking in to appease some builders. And
yeah, it’s an unfortunate red herring, I think, because it suggests you need to go through tier
two to get to tier three. That hasn’t been the case in BC, and perhaps will be in your jurisdiction
as well. So I understand this is where you guys are at 2024 have adopted the tier one, but just
wanted to reflect that what your code is and what’s actually getting built might be two entirely
different things, and for your province to adopt these higher levels of the tier code, it’d be
really helpful them to for helpful for them to understand what the market penetration is of
these, of these tiers already within your jurisdiction. And so we know, for example, we had local
governments able to go out first. And so by 2021 70% of all new build was getting built to tier
three, and we just adopted tier tier three province wide. And we know that already 30% of new
builders going to tier four or above. So really interested in what you guys understand about
where your market current is at. And by the way, our market was, we had far poorer
performing buildings the new I imagine when we started, we were not being attentive to air
tightness, especially in our warmer parts of our province. So my first guidance is really to
understand your builders and what’s actually going on in your jurisdiction. It might tear covid
might not be as scary as it seems to some. So really understand what that baseline is. And. We
sort of mapped out what the sort of market segments were of our of our builders who are
building in BC. So we often it seems like we hear from the squeaky wheels the people who are
struggling are the stragglers. But what we really want to do with the tier code was to
understand what the innovators and the early adopters like Eton were doing, and then let them
be coaches to the rest of the industry. So we ended up, we worked very, very closely with the
Canadian Home Builders Association. We found that those people who were volunteering for
the Canadian home builders were typically building better quality homes anyway, and so they
had to end up measuring their their homes, seeing where they were at. And once they realized
where they were at, they were able to be really great advocates for the rest of the market. Yes,
we can to pull the rest of that that market through. And then similarly, we work strongly with
the building officials association of BC, nobody wants to have builders who aren’t building a
safe, warm, cozy homes. So you know their job is really to work with the stragglers. So bringing
them on board as well around covid option was really helpful. And then there we go. We
wanted to move that early and late majority through. So we really were looking to empower our
innovators to teach their teach the peers. So we did a whole bunch of work with the individual
Home Builders Association. We have regional ones here in BC, and really elevated their work.
So where they were videos, they were profiles on, yeah, I built this building and it’s a step three
one, or I built this building and it’s tier four one, etc. And we had homeowners as well. So we
brought these guys out once they were convinced that, yes, it’s the right thing to do, they were
able to be the train the trainers. They were able to come out to their own conferences and talk
about, yes, you can do this as well. Second thing is, we really brought leadership together, we
created something called the Energy step Code Council, which I’m on the leadership group for.
It was critical that we had the province there. It was critical we had local governments, because
these are regulators. But we also had the home builders, the developers, the architects, the
engineers, building officials, planners, all the old professional associations were there in the
room to be able to say, yes, we can make this transition that we can’t. And nobody in the room
felt that we shouldn’t be building better buildings. Everyone could agree on, yes, we it is
technically possible to build to passive house level. But what’s it going to take for our industry
to transition? And they were able to provide guidance, and we really opened it up when people
had concerns, because we had leading builders there who could kind of ground truth some of
the comments that were coming in, we welcomed comments coming through. You know, it’s
difficult in my region. Why is that? Why is it difficult? What are the trouble? Oh, it’s training
issues. Oh, great. Okay, so we need to work with the universities, the colleges, etc. So we
welcomed input from others, and we held this sort of confidence space that we had the leading
thinkers here, and so we could get a good pathway around what it was going to take. By the
way, having a funder to fund the set Code Council, fund studies, fund training, is really critical.

We as BC Hydro, were able to use demand side management funding to be able to support
that, and that would be a really critical element to be able to make sure that you have long
term support for this transition. The third point that I’m going to make is to really lean on your
local governments. Now I’m here at another conference. I’m speaking here in Ottawa, and I
understand that other jurisdictions are limiting what local governments can do. They can’t
require that their builders go above code, and I think that’s a real missed opportunity. Initially,
in BC, we weren’t allowed to go about local governments weren’t allowed to go above code to
make outright requirements, but they ended up doing very innovative things to get around
that. So for example, they ended up one municipality down, zoned the entire municipality and
said, Okay, everyone has to build at this level. But hey, if you want to build the other level that
you wanted to build at, you have to build a step code three. Another one had rezoning policy. If
you’re doing a rezoning, part of what you have to do is to build up to, you know, step five. So
there was all sorts of policy tools that you could use if your local government isn’t allowed to
lead, where we landed in BC, and I think it would be great if you could land elsewhere in the
country was allowing local governments to lead. So we found that the local governments that
were in urban areas were typically more progressive. They typically had better trained staff or.
Eddie they typically had, yeah, but just the appetite to try things and so, yeah, give you an
example. So, yeah, within, within one year of the energy step code, the tier code, your tier code
being made available, we had, I think it was about 19 local governments, which made up only
15% of all local governments in BC, but it was 70% of the housing, the building start locked into
step code, so you don’t have to worry about, well, can spasm and the little tiny places build to
these levels, do they have enough energy advisors, et cetera. You could actually try it out in
the large urban areas where you’ve got more capacity, prove it out, and then that helps to get
the provincial uptake. So just a couple of examples from city of Vancouver of just the scale of
uptake that they’ve ended up having, and this was like in 2019 now we have, you know, city
wide requirements. So I’m going to wrap it up there. I’m really interested in your questions.
Happy to take any after Ethan’s had a chance to talk a little bit about Manitoba, if you are
interested in in learning more, as I say, there’s that that report that we published in 2019 and I
was on a podcast a little while ago. Also happy to answer any questions.
11:28
Thank you, Robin. My name is Eaton Harris from Harris builders. And so while I was preparing
for this presentation, I came across an Instagram post I thought was kind of somewhat relevant
to the topic. It read, in case you needed to know what Republicans have going on next week on
the House floor, it says, Jesus H, Christ. HR, 6192 hands off our home appliances. Act HR, 7673
liberty and laundry. Act 7645, the clothes dryers, reliability. Act 7637 refrigerator freedom. Act,
affordable air conditioning. Act, stop, unaffordable. Dishwashers, standards. Act, so I chuckled.
But this is kind of a continuation or a variation on a theme of the take my gas range from my
cold, dead hands discussion that that’s been going around for the last while, and I think a large
segment of the population in the US and in Canada as well. This definitely resonates with them.
12:47
It’s easy to drum up fear.
12:52
Okay, I am reading one of the comments,
12:56
but it’s easy to drum up fear. It’s easy to negatively paint energy efficiency and sustainability
and general negatively, it’s easy to say it’s too expensive or too bureaucratic, and removing
regulations or cutting red tape is often a winning political strategy with amongst a lot of a large
segment of the population. So even if it hurts those people in the end, or in the case of cutting
red tape, is just a bunch of words.
13:28
So my our topic is not
13:32
on. Well, I mean, in some ways it is on, on this similar topic, but, but we’re talking about the
building code, energy tiers, and it is very similar. It’s less about whether we as an industry can
fast track towards the higher tiers, because we’re, you know, in Manitoba, we’re already
building to the higher tiers consistently. It’s just more about changing mindsets and then
hopefully changing policy. My talk is not going to be about changing mindsets or policy. We’ve
got sustainability, Manitoba to and other great groups that are doing work on this. But my my
discussion is more about our business, personally and how we came to to more energy efficient
or greener building practices. So I’m not going to go into why. You know the changes from tier
one to tier two or three. Well, to tier three really don’t add much in the way of building costs,
especially when you factor in efficient efficiency Manitoba rebates, and we know that energy
efficient homes save clients more money in the long term. They can help reduce peak energy
demands, which help the overall grid emit less greenhouse gasses. There’s, I mean, there’s a
million reasons, and. Um, and I’m sure you all know them, but yeah, I’d rather go into a little bit
of what, where our company came from. So Harris builders, or Harris holdings. It’s a family
business. We’ve been around since the late 50s. My grandpa started it, and we were one of the
largest piling companies in Western Canada focused on large, multi story buildings and bridges.

We were part of the construction of the Midtown bridge, the Disraeli bridge, lots of bridges, lots
of sky rises. And in the 70s, my father started building homes in tuxedo almost as a side what
was a side project outside of the company, and then ultimately, when our pilot company shifted
to other industrial construction areas in the 90s and the and the early 2000s Harris builders as
a formal division was was started. So since then, we’ve been we’ve been focused only, or
mainly, on high end custom homes and then large scale restoration projects for the most part.
As a teen, I worked in the family business, but then I had a long hiatus where I went and
pursued other interests, and I guess some of those interests make me a less conventional
owner of a construction company. So for years, I co ran Mondragon bookstore and coffee
house. Some of you from Winnipeg, if you, if you, if you remember that place, it was an
exchange district vegan cafe that focused mainly on local, organic and fairly traded goods, long
before this became part of the sort of mainstream. Not sure if it’s part of the mainstream, but
every restaurant now at least talks or gives some amount of lip service to local or organic and
early traded goods, but so I wasn’t your typical builder when I came back to the company, but
sustainable choices have always been, you know, in my heart, but when I came back in 2012 to
the to the family business, Sustainability definitely wasn’t the first thing on my mind. I wanted
to stabilize our I wouldn’t call it fledgling, but our home building company, our side of the
business, and then establish ourselves ultimately as the preeminent high end custom home
builder in the city and through surrounding ourselves with, you know, smart and passionate
people, we’ve been able to do some pretty cool things. We’ve tried to become sort of the
architects builder and seek out challenging projects. We don’t run from difficult design.

Instead, our guys try to figure out more and how to build more and more complex buildings, it seems.
And then through these difficult projects, we just become more and more passionate with how
to build better and with so many crazy details that we have to work with every day, we’ve just
had to increase our building science chops, I guess so, one source we relied on consistently
through the early years, and especially now today too, was prairie house performance and geo
Robson. So before we got smart enough to actually send geo plans, before we started building
well, especially with efficiency Manitoba, and before we were framing them, we’d call him in a
panic to get him to a job site and go over difficult details and difficult aspects of the build and
walk through the house with him. And they were always they were always informative, and
we’ve learned so many from so many of our failures over the years and some successes then.
Since then, we’ve made it our standard to to include in our in all of our homes, structural
concrete basement slabs with under slab insulation, ICF foundations for the most part, or if we
do exposed interior, concrete walls will have four inches of SubTerra on the exterior. We do our
standards is exterior two inch rock wool as well, or exterior zip sheeting, although the zip
sheeting is more just because some of our builds take so damn long to build. So it’s helpful to
have the zip sheeting, heat pumps, try pane windows. A lot of what you know, a lot of other
builders are doing in the city, but a couple of other things that we do that are maybe a little bit
different, are we also 3d model all. Of the homes that we’re working on. So if an architect gives
us a drawing package, we’ll internally 3d model the whole build. It obviously has a ton of
benefits for us as a builder, but in terms of energy efficiency, it’s a good tool to spot just travel
areas that might you know, that we could deal with or or problem solve well before we get to
that stage. So if there’s any tricky building envelope issues, we can hopefully spot them. We
also do our own internal pre board review where all of our PMS and our site supers meet at one
of our projects and pick it apart before we close it in. It’s definitely not a fun day, potentially, for
the PMs and the site supers on that particular project, but ultimately, we learn a ton from them.
So we’re getting better and better on each project. Really. We currently build on average
somewhere between tier three and tier four. But, I mean, there’s no, there’s no reason why we
couldn’t go above tier four today. It really is just a question of of our clients and sometimes the
architects and designers that we’re working with. We’re, you know, we’re a little bit different,
because we’re in a segment of the market building high end homes and and we’re not building
them on spec.

We’re not doing track homes. So we’re building people’s forever homes for the
most part. So they need to be durable, they need to be built for comfort. Sometimes they need
to be built maintenance free. That means, but every house needs maintenance, but we also
have clients that have budgets that they want us to stick to, like every other builder. So we do
battle at times with added costs for exterior insulation or heat pumps, for example. But
efficiency, Manitoba, other programs for homeowners, have definitely helped a ton in making
the these kind of easier decisions for for our clients nowadays, but I would say the bigger thing,
bigger selling point, for our clients in terms of energy efficiency, has just been overall comfort
in their homes and then possible savings. And then it’s just in the last few years that we’ve had
some of our clients that are starting to think more about their urban footprint, so eliminating or
reducing gas services to the house or appliances paying a bit extra for higher eco pack
concrete. More and more are considering solar and geothermal. But we, I would say that we, as
builders, we have to nudge our clients more. We definitely have to, you know, keep pushing
government to to rise through the tiers. But it’s hard to wait, especially in Manitoba, if we’re
just starting at tier one. So in the meantime, one thing that we’ve discussed and one thing that
we are implementing to help steer our clients to more energy efficient choices is
23:10
for we’re doing an in house in Harris program where for geothermal and solar, any clients that
want to go With these options, we don’t mark those up. There’s no management fee on them.
And then we also offer a, up to a $5,000 rebate on the overall build if they’re going with
geothermal or and or solar. But I the last point. I don’t want to make it sound like, you know,
the solution rests with business, because, you know that’s not we’re not going to get our way
out of this with just businesses coming to the table. We need regulation, we need code. We
need to rise through the tiers. It’s just too there’s too much pressure on too many builders to
build the lowest standards possible. So even though it’s a nice option for individual businesses
to give a rebate or a program to kind of nudge clients to more energy efficient choices, the real
solution is more advocacy. So, yeah, I guess I’ll stop there. I maybe went over a little bit, and
we don’t have too much time for questions.
24:20
All right. Thank you so much to both of you. Really appreciate all of the wisdom and insights
that you’ve shared from your different perspectives. Lots to learn from BC, and then also lots to
learn from people who are already in Manitoba Building Energy Efficient houses. So from the
chat, we have some questions. Eaton, what do you estimate the cost to move from tier one to
tier three.
24:44
Well, you know what? I think sustainability. Manitoba has a pretty good I think you guys on your
website even assumed it was four to $5,000 or so. I yeah, I mean, to be honest. I have not
tracked that to see if that lines up with what we would see. But, I mean, yeah, I I don’t know it
might be a little bit more. It also depends too, because we’re some of our the homes that we’re
building are are larger homes. So it really depends on a on a case by case basis. Mm, hmm,
25:23
very fair. Robin, do you have any insight in the different costs between the tiers that you’d like
to share?
25:30
Yeah, for sure. So we should. We do have a costing study that we did it back in 2019 but you
can find on our website, we typically looked at about a 1% cost increase, which was, again,
within the margins of error. It often design often depends, though, on the way you design the
building in the first place. If you’re making a super complicated building with lots of articulation,
way more expensive you’re making a simple one, you’re getting cost savings anyway, over the
fact that you’re not articulating the building. And then also it’s obviously much more cost
effective. So yeah, really, a lot of cautions around the costs, that if you think about it ahead of
time, you’ve got performance requirements, then you can fit it into the budget one way, one
way or the other. You know, our architects were talking about, you know, using exterior
cladding to design to add interest to the building, not necessarily building, building articulation.
26:28
Nice. Thank you. Okay, so
26:30
a question about supply chain so we have heard that there are supply chain issues. So Eaton,
I’m going to ask you about if you’re experiencing any of that and have supply chains happening
in Manitoba. And then Robin, I would like to hear from you after about any supply chain like,
how you guys overcame any challenges related to that. So Eden,
26:48
I mean, the only supply chain issue that’s hit us recently has been rock wool. I’m sure a lot of
other builders, maybe on the on the chat, know about that one as well, too, but even there. I
mean, we shouldn’t say this, but we’ve been scouring Manitoba and just buying as much of it as
we can and then, but also through AMC foam as well too. We do a lot of NextEra as well. So
yeah. I mean, we’ve, we haven’t had any problems really, supply chain wise. And we also do, I
mean, we’re, we’re not a large Track Builder. We do about, you know, 12 to, you know, really,
at any given time, we’ll only have about 12 new home builds on the go. So, yeah, it’s been, we
haven’t, we haven’t seen a major hit.
27:42
Hey Robin, yeah, for sure. I mean, so I would say that one thing I didn’t mention, so energy step
code, the tier code is about efficiency. We’ve also just adopted the zero carbon step code,
which hopefully you guys will also have available to you, which is around the carbon footprint of
the building, so, from a, from a operational perspective, so really, again, it has tiers the same
as the tier code and and, you know, with tier one being reporting, tier two being taking out
either hot water or heat, sorry, gas, hot water or heating. Tier three being taking out both and
tier four also looking at cooking, taking out cooking. So on that side, heat pumps, availability
has been something that we’re working with. And I think, you know, I think the bit the beauty of
setting a tier code transition for your industry is telling them it’s coming like and that’s what a
lot of our we have at a provincial scale. The local governments have typically not just adopted
tier three. They’ve said in tier four, it’s going to be in three years time, and tier five, it’s going
to be in in five years time. They’ve given a time frame tied to that so builders can start to work
with their suppliers, understanding these materials are coming through, they can work with
their with their staff, to get them trained up, because they know that it’s coming. So yes, supply
chain is an issue, but I think providing that certainty of regulation is very, very helpful
29:14
for people to invest in that area.
29:17
Okay, another question for Robin about what training programs for builders construction trades
were available for the step code, new code requirements, and how did that part of the equation
happen? Yeah,
29:28
for sure, training programs were critical. So again, with our demand side management dollars,
we partnered with all the professional associations to deliver training to their organizations, and
it was like the building officials had a building official guide that was developed and they
trained their build as building officials. So actually, I had just got a text on being asked to speak
at the building official, building official Association, BC conference in three weeks time at. We’ll
make sure that on the I’m there as a speaker, but we’ll have on the panel building officials,
builders, so they’re actually hearing it from authoritative sources. Because, you know, I’m just
somebody from BC Hydro, so making sure that you get get those respected voices is critical.
And then we also found professional associations were really interested in making it part of
professional development requirements. So rather than just a, you know, a webinar of interest
to people, if it was some way they could get credits that they they need mandatory, they need
to get mandatory credits to be able to keep their professional qualification if they have one
around step code. That was awesome. And then we even had, we have BC housing here, who’s
a regulator for builders, and they made it a mandatory requirement for builders to actually pass
through training. So there’s, there’s lots of different ways to make it happen, but working with
those trusted industry associations, those voices, they need to provide training anyway, here’s
something they can provide training on. It was really, was really helpful.
31:06
Thank you. Eaton, do you have any reflections on training requirements that you’d like to see in
Manitoba? It’s okay if you don’t. But just figured I’d ask.
31:14
Not really, no. I mean, yeah, internally, we just try to learn from the best we we are constantly
asking geo a ton of questions. We’re always we also John Wells. He’s a, a unbelievable
resource. There’s, there’s a lot in Winnipeg, and we, we pick their brains all the time,
31:39
yeah, there’s, there is so much expertise, and it’s so nice to see how many people, both in
Manitoba and outside of Manitoba, are willing to step up and talk about these things. But
definitely need to figure out how to do some of what Robin has said, to make it available to
everybody, and not just have 60,000 people emailing geo specifically, for example,
31:58
I know, I guess maybe,
32:02
um, eaten. Do you share or publish what you learn in Manitoba like do you review plans?
Option? I am planning on building a house and considering paralyte under foam to have less
carbon. So do you ever share your you know
32:19
what we’re I have to say we’re kind of terrible when it comes to our social media presence, or
what our website, and at some point we’re going to get on our game. But if any, any person
who is, you know, doing something on their own, and wanted some advice, we’d be happy to
talk to anyone. I mean, just reach out to us and and we’ll share our expertise, for sure, but we
don’t do Yeah, I mean, at some point, maybe we’ll step up our social media game.
32:52
Amazing, amazing. Do either of you have any final thoughts that you wanted to share a
32:58
sort of question around the most effective policy tools, one that was really interesting that you
guys might be interested in as well. A city of Vancouver has policies that apply to the largest
buildings. And sorry, Ethan, this is probably going to address your guys, but they have a they
had this carbon policy, which is if buildings under took an average building side, I think, was
2000 square feet, and then they said any building above that had to have the same carbon
footprint as that 2000 square foot home. And so you ended up having way higher
requirements. The bigger you had the building, the more onerous with the requirements. But
who’s going to come out and say, we shouldn’t be doing that like it’s certainly not the
affordable housing advocates. They’re going to be brilliant. Let’s, let’s learn from from those
bigger luxury builders who can certainly afford to have that in in their budget, and then make it
easier, then then bring along the smaller home builders as they come through. So I thought
that was a really innovative approach to making sure that we, yeah, we allow for market
transformation.
34:14
I think it’s smart. I mean, I would we try to talk to our clients too? I mean, we also don’t. I mean,
we’re working with architects or designers, so we don’t always have every say. So that’s why
it’s on the policy level. If, if we can do it there, then it just forces us to do this. It makes it easier
for us to talk to our clients. If there’s no real choice there. It’s this is what the code is. We have
to, we have to build to the standard, because the home is this size. So yeah, I would welcome it
for sure. Yeah.
34:50
Thank you so much for catching that question. I’m
34:52
sorry that I missed it in the chat. There one final question before we go for the end of the
session and take a. Little break before the next one. Are there any research documents
produced through the code Tier team in BC? Publicly available?
35:05
Yeah, if you go to energy, energy step code.ca
35:10
There is a resources section on there, and including the costing studies. We did build a
handbook, a building Official Handbook, large scale builders programs, etc. So go on there, and
we actually, there’s also, I should say, there’s a newsletter that we publish. So I think there’s a
how to get signed up. You can go to there. If you can’t find out how to get signed up, let me
know, Laura and I can provide that link. But there’s, again, it’s a continuous learning for our
builders, for our industry. And so the way that we can share success stories and challenges and
innovations, that’s a great resource, and we’d welcome others to be reading it as well. Yeah.
35:54
Thank you so much to BC for all of the resources that you’ve developed to make available, and
certainly all include how to sign up for that in the next newsletter, and we often share some of
certainly all include how to sign up for that in the next newsletter, and we often share some of
the things from BC in the SBM newsletter, because, you know, it’s important to see that things
are possible and they’re not just like an intellectual exercise. So really appreciate all the work
you guys have done well. Thank you so much for your time and expertise that you shared here
today. We’ll be back in about five minutes for the next session, so go grab a drink. Have a fun
time, and thank you again. Eaton and Robin, this was amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye.

00:00
Who are we? We are one of the largest solar contractors in the province of Manitoba. You know,
I would say we’ve been around for about 10 years now and going strong and continue to grow
so,
00:16
located on Aaron Street in Winnipeg,
00:19
but we service all of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Northwest Ontario, and we do a fair bit of work
in Nunavut as well. So what we do? We design supply install photovoltaic systems that power
homes and commercial buildings and communities. Our mission to promote the use of clean
energy through electrification and provide resilient power solutions to our clients. So this kind
of this is a common misconception for a lot of people who are just getting into solar power.

Most of what we do, and I think Ty is going to talk about something different afterwards, but
most of what we do does not include batteries. It is not about cutting the power to the building.
It’s about augmenting and supplementing your power with solar energy, so offsetting some of
your existing, you know, building energy with, you know, electrons less traveled. So it’ll be, you
know, electrons coming from your roof into your building, as opposed to coming from the utility
into your building. And that, that transition between the two is seamless. So, you know, when
there isn’t enough power happening on the roof, it comes from the utility. So that’s the that’s
mainly the type of stuff that we do. We do some battery stuff, but not, not related to buildings
at all. So this is a little bit of an illustration, you know, sort of a simplified illustration of how that
utility, interactive system works. And then we’ll get into the nuts and bolts of why it, you know,
could be a good opportunity for for you and your home or business. So, so what can a solar
investment do for my home or business. So traditionally, when we’re, you know, selling this to
customers, there’s always the sustainability act or sustainability factor for us. You know, in
Manitoba, it gets difficult to make a case for solar being more sustainable than hydro power.
They’re both sustainable sources of energy. So if you’re offsetting, you know, your power, you
know, for us in Manitoba, we typically are making a financial case for this to our customers. So
there are scenarios where it can be a little bit different, like in large commercial buildings,
where you’re trying to offset a certain where you have to hit energy targets, then you know,
you can go, Okay, well, I’ve done everything that we need to do with our H back systems and
lighting systems, and we’re still not there. What? What can we do? You know, we can add, like,
building integrated photovoltaics, or we can add a rooftop solar array and augment the power a
little bit, just to get you to that, you know, target that you’re trying to achieve. But for the most
part, you know, when we’re selling these to our customers, we’re selling it based on what it’s
going to do for them financially. So, so here’s a little diagram, essentially showing, you know
what you’re doing here. You’re buying a solar panel system. You know, at this point in the price
rate hike with Manitoba Hydro, as it’s going up over the years. When you amortize the cost,
your capital expense that you pay for the system, you know, say you pay 10,000 for the
system, and the system’s gonna last you 30 years. You get to a average cost of power over the
next 25 years. So you end up in that like, you know, five to six cents range per kilowatt hour. A
lot of times. We equate this to like, pre purchasing all your fuel for your vehicle for 20 years in
advance at a lower price. Certainly, there’s, you know, it’s not as simple of a calculation as that.
But the point is, you’re pre paying for all your electrons off the roof of your system, and then
you’re, you know, advertising that cost over 25 years. Traditionally, it’s been difficult to make,
you know, with the cost of capital, it’s been a difficult case to make, just because, if you’re
saving two cents, but you’re paying for it all up front, then there’s a cost of, you know, a large
capital expense like that. Nowadays, though, with the cost of the systems coming down and
some really creative financing programs, really great financing programs, in fact, and some
some other tax credits and rebates. You know that capital cost has come down to the point
where it’s become feasible in a lot of cases. And again, of course, promoting sustainability. You
know this, this works a lot better outside of Manitoba than in Manitoba. But you know, even,
even the optics of having a solar system on a building, for a lot of companies, that’s enough. So
a lot of companies will put these up just, just because they want the optics that. They’re doing
something to promote green energy. So one of the benefits here we got this, this amazing
rebate from efficiency Manitoba, who I saw some other representatives on the call here today.
This, this actually is an old slide that they provided me. This system cap is no longer 50
kilowatts, and this Max has been lifted as well, so you can get some pretty substantial rebates
from efficiency Manitoba. So that’s that’s one thing that’s really helping with the commercial
and residential sales of solar panels in Manitoba right now. Another big part here that’s just
come into effect recently is the clean technology investment tax credit. So that is up to a 30%
tax credit for refundable tax credit for for any tax paying entity. So essentially, you can get
30% off this the solar install. So you know, 50 cents a lot, and then 30% off. We’re talking about
discounts that are in and around that 50% of the system mark. So you know, when you’re
looking at that capital, capital investment now that’s been cut in half the number, you know
that that number that you’re investing starts to look a lot more attractive when you’re talking
about paying, you know, three cents a kilowatt hour for the power off the roof, rather than
paying, you know, seven or eight cents for the next 25 years. So so it starts to become a more
feasible financial investment. So I’ve got a slide here and this, this next, next example is, is sort
of a financial example. You’re not going to see an example like this in the real world. I will tell
you this would be, you know, an ideal roof mount 45 degree tilt, perfectly facing south, no
obstructions. You know, like this, this, this system doesn’t exist. In most cases, there will be,
you know, obstructions, angles to the roof. You know, other issues that come up. But you know,
as far as a, you know, best case scenario you could have for a 50 kilowatt system, you know,
$110,000 top line cost of 30% refundable tax credit, $25,000 rebate. And there is also an
accelerated capital, capital cost allowance for businesses. So that means you can write 100% of
the system off in year one. So assuming, again, making some assumptions, that you’re paying
26% in taxes for a federal for a corporation, you know your potential cost after rebates and tax
savings would be in and around, $35,000 with an annual savings of roughly $6,000 so you can
see, you know, obviously this, this example, isn’t, you know, isn’t going to be a real world one.
This is more ideal, and the numbers won’t quite get to this mark. But, you know, there is a
business case to be made now for solar panels in Manitoba, where in the past, there really has
not been.

So you know, when you’re talking about a few years return on investment businesses
start to look at that. So then we get to some obstacles for growing the solar market in
Manitoba. So some of our barriers, one of the big ones is Manitoba Hydro, and due to no fault of
their own, you know, we have low rates here, which, you know, in that rate triangle that I
showed you, it makes that delta a little bit smaller than it should be. And you know, if, if, if you
were paying, you know, 15 or 16 cents a kilowatt hour, then paying, you know, four or five
cents, buying your power in advance, would would seem a lot more favorable. So the other
thing Manitoba Hydro, you know, again, they’re mainly concerned with stability and peak
demand. And because solar power is producing its power primarily in the summer and in
daylight, and they really Manitoba Hydro as a winter peak. And utility, you know, they see their
peak in in the evening in the winter, it really doesn’t align. And so they don’t really look at solar
as something that will assist them in meeting their customers peak demand. And therefore
they kind of devalue the power that that they’re devalued the energy a little bit more. So
they’re not really willing to look at it. And, you know, any discussions that we’ve had with them
for utility scale projects, they’re not overly eager to, you know, provide, you know, a good
power purchase agreement on that. So that is a bit of a barrier. And it’s, you know, I think it’s
just that Manitoba Hydros interests and and our interests, you know, as a solar industry, you
know, don’t, don’t align 100% so
09:41
next we got government policy. Again, I mentioned the rebates and tax credits that are now in
effect. These things are ever changing. So it is a roller coaster for the solar industry in Canada
and the US. It’s there’s always changes, either from the utility or from the government. And.
Back just on either policy rebates that take our industry from, you know, really, really high
demand to, you know, the next day no demand. You know, we had one of these recently with
the greener Homes program, which, you know, they said, Oh, well, you know, we got all this
money, and it’s going to go on until 2028, and then, and then they said, Oh, in December this
year, they said, Oh, well, we ran out of money early, so we’re going to end it in March. And
then, you know, so we had this giant rush of customers come, oh, we need solar panels. We
need solar panels. And then it dropped, and it stopped. And so we’re now in a bit of a lull until
they announce a new program. And that’s sort of what our industry has done, you know, for the
past, at least since I’ve been in it for the past 10 years. So something a little more stable, like
these investment tax credits are actually quite good. And if we could get these implemented in
the residential sector, that would be a lot better. Because really, to change the tax code is a lot
more difficult than it is to just implement a rebate, you know. And those actually require, you
know, legislation to change. So if we could get a few things enshrined in tax code, and they
have this in the United States, then we would get a more stable market for the solar industry.
But it looks like we’re going to have some stuff on the commercial side, the residential side
likely won’t see that. So we’re
11:16
kind of an off grid is kind of where we’ve morphed our company into we’re asked to
11:23
work on bussing, a myth of solar
11:25
panels having no major role in management energy mix. We’re going to go a little bit different
than Daniel, but everything you said is very accurate. Was what we found with any grid tie. But
again, we don’t really do that, so a little bit about us. We specialize in modular, off grid power
11:45
and water solutions, and it’s kind of morphed
11:49
into solar design and installation, mainly off grid in in remote, remote corners of Canada, and a
lot in northern Manitoba, heavy vehicle EV
12:00
conversions.
12:01
Some people might know about the tundra buggies at Churchill. Those were built, designed at
our shop. And in the picture there, you see the big, big white unit that some of us are standing
in front of. That’s a that’s
12:16
a kitchen, a commercial kitchen that’s actually part of
12:18
the tundra buggy Lodge, which is out on the shore of the Hudson Bay, and that’s actually a
commercial kitchen that supplies
12:25
power
12:28
to the rest of the lodge by a diesel electric hybrid with about 4000 pounds of lithium batteries
on board there, which is cut the fuel consumption on the lodge to about a third, which is
significant when we’re in a remote location where
12:48
fuel has to be hauled over the
12:50
tundra, where there is polar bears everywhere.
12:56
Next slide here, so a little bit of where we are going to argue this point is the the actual natural
factors which are part of Manitoba energy. So Manitoba is one of the best provinces in terms of
the natural factors. It includes the maximum amount of energy that the system can produce?
We find that the natural reason why the solar system is good for Manitoba is that when it is
sunny, it’s usually either very cold or very hot, and somewhat supplements where there are
extreme temperature
13:39
changes in
13:40
in Manitoba,
13:44
when it’s cold, it’s usually Sunny, and a large amount of manpower is actually needed by
electric heat, a disproportionate compared to some other provinces. And when it’s very hot, we
think, you know, air conditioning, fridges, freezers all fighting the heat of the Sun and solar in
some cases, directly
14:05
offsets some of those surges,
14:09
not all of them, like Daniel spoke to but it is
14:11
directly, directly related to refrigeration.
14:16
In some ways.
14:22
There’s a quick case study. I just wanted to you know, just this has to do with Manitoba as well.
I don’t know if anybody’s heard of York factory. It’s an African historic site up on the it’s up past
Gillum. It’s actually up the East River. Very interesting part of Manitoba history and North
America’s history. We’ve put an off grid system into there, and
14:44
just a couple of things related
14:47
to that, which, which
14:49
are significant
14:51
in terms of real world number numbers. So
14:56
York factory has, that’s the building in the picture there. That’s the the old. A trading post.
Basically, there’s nothing left except that building now and then. Kind of where this picture is
taken from the staff. That’s kind of the staff and some indigenous knowledge keepers stay
there. Some people that work on the building restoration specialist, they’re there for
approximately 14 weeks a year now, starting in June to September. Before we started adding
solar to the staff house, they would run approximately 300 hours of diesel generator. It’s 10
kilowatt diesel generator there. We’ve slowly added some solar based on budgets, federal
government budgets, and that to to the staff house, and directly, directly related there was,
15:47
they’ve calculated, you know, they
15:49
used to be 300 hours of diesel. Now they’re at approximately 30. And that’s 300 liters of fuel. Is
more easier for them to track is in that capacity, they had to sling it in with helicopters, which,
from yellow, is a 30 minute flight each way. So about an hour and a half and no passengers are
able to be on that flight. So you know, a barrel of fuel coming in is another $3,000 in fuel cost,
basically your helicopter cost. That was at the nine week season with three person occupancy,
and now that summer, summer season extended to 14 weeks, six person occupancy. Now
they’re approximately down to 50 liters in that 14 weeks, which is now able to be brought in by
by boats. There’s boats that bring in tourists, and this is like two dairy towns a year that they’re
now down to, which is, which is significant. And I think that’s where it fits into this, this
Manitoba energy grid that you know, your factory is so close to all the the famous Manitoba
Hydro dams that are, you know, they’re very close by. This is really the mouth of the Nelson
and it’s just obviously way too costly to bring electricity. So solar really offsets the fuel cost in
in that location. And they have, you know, they’ve now put up a shop with with chop saws, skill
saws. There’s more fridges, more freezers. Obviously, you know, there’s surges at the at the
beginning and end of the day. I’ll kind of go a little bit there. That’s the stat post. That’s the the
picture on the left there shows the East facing roof with some solar panels. Like I said, these
are added on, you know, usually a couple years apart. So now we have a East facing which is
covering our morning sun, and that’s when the, you know, the toasters and coffee makers.

So you don’t so it limits the size of battery bank you need. You don’t need a massive one to try
and capture everything in the middle of the day, the solar on the east side is capturing our
morning sun to cover our morning surges. The picture on the right is the latest one, and that’s
the extra two kilowatts that’s south facing, which has made a huge difference in no runtime at
night. So it may not cover our our daytime use as it’s not a huge surge around noon. There’s no
air conditioning on the site, but it allows the system to stock right back up to make it through
the night for the fridges, freezers, wastewater system, water system, that kind of thing. This is
the West siding, the West Side. More solar there, and then there’s water tanks there. Again, it’s
in a tidal plane, right? So there’s, there’s water tanks, those, those steel tanks, or water tanks
of Parks Canada put there to basically fill up with, with water at low tide. So they’re not bringing
in brackish or salt water. Wastewater system is in a little, a little white building on the bottom.
So they’re having really good, really good, real world numbers that we can track on this site.
One other just a quick point before I finish up here the there’s Polaris makes a electric ATV, the
Polaris Ranger. EV, and in some of these locations in Wellington, Churchill, there’s another one
up in Inuvik, in houses territories. But we’ve, we’ve installed solar on the roofs of these and it’s
basically, you know, it, it allows them to have an EV in these locations and not rely on their
their little micro grid when they’re off. So this can go, it extends a significant range extender,
but it’s also fueling itself. So wherever you park it, if it’s parked for the night or the day or a
week, it’s always charging if there’s, if there’s sun out, and it doubles as a is a rain shelter and
and it’s just another vehicle that’s, you know, it’s. Is it not, not necessarily it’s an EV that’s not
adding to the Manitoba grid. So that, in that case, dollar is is really helping the grid in that way,
by not adding another EV to charge. So that’s kind of some of the findings on our on our off grid
20:20
presentation. So
20:22
that is it for me.
20:26
Thank you so much. That’s excellent information. So we’ve got some questions coming to us
already in the chat. So to start off, we have one that is, what is the role of passive solar play in
controlling the indoor climate in the buildings for which you advise people by passive solar
meant the sun coming through the windows?
20:53
Oh, yeah, that’s a tough question first. Well, I mean, I would say I’m an expert in solar when
they become electrons, not when they’re still the sun. So I think that’s probably something that
one of the HVAC guys on the call would be probably more equipped to answer. We don’t
typically advise on that, like we’re not involved in, like the design of the buildings and where
the windows are placed, or any of that. You know, we’re really more concerned with turning
that those solars into electrons that you can use for energy. But yeah, there’s certainly, I mean,
I know from the little experience that I do have that there is certainly a big place for passive
solar and sustainable buildings in all buildings. In fact, even in my own home, you open up the
blinds and all of a sudden it’s five degrees warmer in your living room, right? So yeah, there’s
certainly something to be said for that, but wouldn’t be my area.
21:47
Okay, so we had a little bit of, is there anything you wanted to add to that? Ty,
21:52
no, no, that’s the only thing
21:53
I would say, in terms of, like solar, like I, for example, on my roof, I find that it’s, it definitely
makes the attic cooler, is there’s basically an air gap in between your panels and your roof, and
it’s saving your shingle because they don’t see the sun anymore.
22:07
Good points. Good points. Okay, so kilowatts saved in Manitoba are sold to the US, or does
Saskatchewan? So do people accept that generating more kilowatts actually does have a
positive greenhouse gas story?
22:22
And who you talk to, I guess, you know, we certainly tried to make that point. But, I mean, I you
know, I believe there’s even time when we’re buying power from the US, you know, evening.
And you know, there are times when your home is actually powered by coal, likely. And you
know, I think it’s hard to like, it would be hard to track that enough to be able to make a proper
and I think if there’s a comment down a little further about the accounting, and it’s it’d be just
very difficult to account for those so, I mean, you can say it, but whether the person you know
believes or takes that to heart is, is another story. But yeah, I mean, the point was made that is
good for the planet, which certainly would be good for the planet.
23:06
Okay, anything else that you wanted to add?
23:11
No, I agree. There’s a really good it used to be kind of a black eye for solar is when they when
the panels were at end of life, not producing as much as a new one, and recycling solar panels
making leaps and bounds. Right now, there’s all kinds of new technologies and and factories
popping up that recycling panel, which is good to
23:35
see. Yes, let’s think about the whole life cycle of things. Okay, so a question here that just
ended up to me. So it’s that, do you see any demand for solar water preheating in Manitoba at
all?
23:50
I think solar thermal is very interesting. And like those, you know, vacuum tube solar, it’s not
something we do again, but, but I think there is a case for them. You know, I would you use
them to heat water? I mean, I don’t know if you would do it in Manitoba, whether the gain
would make it worthwhile. I but there’s, there’s definitely some use case for the for the
technology,
24:15
yeah, and in our case, we have, we actually do that quite a bit, because, again, heating water
takes such a large amount of power we have. We have diversion loads, basically. So once the
batteries are full in an off grid system, any like, if the batteries are full by doing what’s the
point in wasting the rest of your solar? So that diverts that solar directly into basically a water
battery at that point, so it diverts, it’s a divergent load, directly to the water tank here.
24:47
Hey, great. So how much do you see battery technology changing lately? So how is that
affecting the capacity, the longevity,
24:57
in terms of lithium ion, which is. Which is the main one we deal with in our in our EV business,
just a quick example, in the same footprint, because we build battery packs in a
25:12
physical size.
25:14
Within, I would say, four years, our lithium ion battery packs have been the same size, doubled
in capacity, in terms of kilowatt hours, and half in cost. So I think, and that’s that’s almost every
couple of years, it’s doing that so very interesting to see. And they’re getting safer all the time
in terms of lithium. I think the lead acid and AGMs have really kind of leveled off in terms of
their advancement. You know, they’re, they’re quite an older technology now, which is just a
proven technology. So we still put them in a lot of locations that are, you know, seasonal. So,
like lithium is more of a likes to be used where an AGM can go to sleep for nine months and not
worry about it.
26:05
That would that’s some
26:07
points on batteries from my side.
26:10
Yeah, I would say the one thing with with batteries, like the technology, is moving really fast
with lithium batteries and the battery management systems, the one thing that’s moving a lot
slower is, is the electrical code and the rules around it, and that’s presenting a lot of
challenges. Like for Ty, if he’s installing in a location where, you know, he’s not connecting to a
grid, and he’s not, you know, in a residence, he’s not necessarily going to see the struggle that
we see where we’re trying to, you know, install some lithium batteries. Like, as a matter of fact,
we have some in our shop in the back installed. And you know, the difficulty with which it you
the difficulty of getting those installed and passed based on the rules that are currently in place
is significant. So, you know, we had one installation in the City of Winnipeg that took 910, months

for permitting just to go through the code deviation requests and meet all the
requirements that were required. And some of this stuff is getting built into the 2024, code
that’s coming out right right away, so that we’re not going to go need to go through those same
processes. But it’s still quite a difficult thing to be able to install these batteries. So
27:27
yes, yes, I’ve heard some challenges that the codes been presenting for you folks. So the
greener homes Grant was harder for low income homes because of the need for front load the
payments. So the rebates would come months after the expense. Do you think programs that
support solar should be focused or should be trying to address energy poverty or focus on just
adoption?
27:50
That’s a question that might make me unpopular. Yeah. I
27:54
mean, I think they maybe need to set some some high end boundaries, like, we should we be
giving grants out to people that make $300,000 a year? Maybe not, but like, I also don’t think
we should be giving grants and loans to people who are making $20,000 a year. Like, there’s
no point in saddling somebody with a system that they can’t afford to maintain. You know, if
something goes wrong, then they’ve got a loan payment in a non functioning system like that
doesn’t make sense either, you know. So I think we need to target, you know, maybe on the,
you know, lower middle class to, you know, middle class as opposed to, you’re right right now,
like the way the Loan and Grant were structured, you needed to have, you know, $30,000
sitting around to pay the bill and then get reimbursed later with a loan, which doesn’t make a
lot of sense. So there are certainly some problems with the way they did it, and I think the next
version will address some of those problems. My hope is that it doesn’t just entice a bunch of
people who really, you know, shouldn’t be installing solar like we often will get requests from
like a retiree, inner 60, late 60s, early 70s, on a fixed income, who wants to install solar, and
you’re like, Well, you know for the little bit that it’s going to save you. Do you really want to be
saddled with a 30 year loan that’s tied to your property like that? Doesn’t make any sense
either, right? So, I mean, we got to be mindful of both, both aspects, like, we don’t necessarily
want to give grants to the Ultra Rich to do solar, but we also don’t want to straddle or settle,
you know, poor folks with loans they can’t afford for stuff they can’t afford to maintain. So
29:36
Okay, so next comment is solar totally makes sense, especially if we start thinking about
managing climate risk. Are any of your clients thinking about resilience yet?
29:50
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Everybody wants to install batteries, you know, like a lot of the times, and
I’ll be honest right now, just with the difficulty of installing batteries a lot of times. You know,
this probably is, won’t be popular on this call, but a lot of the times, we suggest a natural gas
generator instead of a battery, just because of, you know, cost and reliability and the ability to
get it installed, you know, efficiently, right? So, but we do have those customers, and a number
of them who say they don’t want any more greenhouse gas emitting things on their property.
And you know, solar is certainly a good option for that. For true resiliency and backup with
solar, you would need, especially to do it in winter months. You would need to have pretty deep
pockets, as Ty can probably attest. I mean, what are the batteries on that house cost there?
Just as a as an example,
30:46
yeah, no. Without, you know, you
30:49
get 100,000 probably no. At the New York
30:52
factory, there’s,
30:53
there’s 248 banks. They’re just probably six grand apiece, which isn’t bad, but, but again, that’s
not, that’s not winter time. It’s not that’s,
31:06
yeah, I mean, the way, the way that I typically would have it phrased to the customers, like
when they insist that they want to go on with batteries, is that, you know, you would tell them
the price of the battery, and tell them the price of the energy that they’re going to be able to
store in that battery. And when you do those numbers, you go, Okay, well, for $7,000 you can
store $2.20 worth of electricity, you know, you do the math, right? Like that’s, yeah, it’s not a
very efficient right now, it’s not a very efficient way, you know, especially if you want to live,
you know, like when you’re talking about resiliency, do you want to be able to cook when the
power goes out like you certainly can’t do that for a reasonable penny. I mean, the last backup
system that we installed was an extra of $60,000 for the customers.
31:54
Okay, so Ty spoke about diversion loads. Daniel can a grid tied setup. Also divert to water
heating or storage loads in lieu of batteries.
32:06
Don’t know about the water heating. I’m sure there’s something. There’s all sorts of things. But
yeah, we can do hybrid systems, and a lot of times, what we’ll do now is we’ll set customers up,
if they’re insistent that they’re going to want backup, we’ll set them up with a hybrid system, or
at least make it like hybrid capable. So it’s just a matter of installing an inverter that’s capable
of working, and Ty would probably work with a lot of these inverters that are capable of working
both in grid tied and in islanding mode. So, you know it, you know? And we say, Okay, well, you
don’t want to spend the 60 grand now to put batteries in, but we’ll, you know, spend an extra
two grand, and then you’re, you’re ready to put batteries in in the future, and then you can do
that, so then it would have the capability of doing both modes. Okay?

00:00
Perfect. Yeah, thanks for having us. My name is Eric Timmons. I am a corporate environmental
specialist overseeing our residential energy portfolio at the City of Calgary, on our climate
team. And with me today, I have Liz ascaria, who is our resilient building coordinator from our
development business and building services department, and we are going to talk to you today
about our home energy label program.
00:30
So to kick things off,
00:34
a bit of background about the program, why we decided to do it, where it came from. So our
Calgary climate strategy. This is called Pathways to 2050 This is a document that was approved
by council in late 2022 and in there are actions around establishing and disclosing Building
Energy labels for all new and existing residential buildings. And that direction is what led to the
creation of what we call our home energy label program. So this program is, at its core,
designed to empower Calgarians to understand their home energy use, how houses, their
homes use energy, and what emissions are tied to them. And in that, we wanted to do a, you
know, have a program that would enable comparison between homes, as well as being able to
work with industry to provide them with best practice resources how we can take steps to, you
know, verify the air tightness of our new homes. And at the time we were designing it, you
know, the tiered performance codes of the national building code were announced, but they
weren’t put into place yet. And this was a way that we could work with industry to help get
them prepared for it, also internally, creating a baseline understanding of our homes and home
energy performance in the city. This was something we didn’t have before. So we have a very
large building stock here in the city. And if you asked us, well, how are they doing? How are
they performing? We did not have any idea. So this is our first step at trying to understand the
energy performance of our building stock. And so in creating the program, we had a number of
more specific objectives. How do we do mandatory labeling? We wanted a by law that ensured
all new low density residential properties. So this included single detached or single detached,
semi detached and duplex homes. And we needed that by law to be something that could be
enforceable. We also had to have a strategy for existing homes. And this is where we went
down the digital energy labeling route. And so this is one where we were calculating and
mapping digital labels for the remainder of our existing homes. We also had to acknowledge
that there was a number of homes in our building stock that would already have the energy
labels that we were after, and we had to come up with a means of collecting and displaying
those as well. And so we have some voluntary intake programs, as well as any labels that are
captured through city programming, like our local PACE program. And then we have to make
sure we were able to disclose this effectively, so making this data and our home energy labels
available to the public online. And so this is where the development of our home energy
performance map that displays both our digital label and our actual home energy labels is
coming into play, and that is something we are looking to roll out in the in the coming months.
So where we get to the myth busting part of this? Because I know that’s the theme of our
gathering here today, and this is, this is a myth in the sense of something we were asked very,
quite often in the initial proposals of this is like, I don’t think anyone’s going to buy into this. I
don’t think anyone’s going to get on board with this internally or externally. And so that was the
myth that we were, that we were up against. So there are first step in, you know, quote,
unquote, busting that myth was we needed to talk to industry. And so this is where we
undertook a year long engagement process, essentially for the entirety of 2022 and so this
involved key representatives in our local building industry. So build, which is our local builder
and Land Development Association, the National Association of Energy advisors, our local real
estate board, our local association of architects and design, as well as local businesses and
organizations, local builders, developers, energy advisors, service organizations, anybody who
would have a hand in this process was engaged through a series of both in person and virtual
engagements over the course of a year where we presented program frameworks to them,
solicited feedback and discussion, and everything that we heard was collected and published
on in what we heard reports, and really, we utilize a lot of that feedback to optimize our
program design. And I would say our first initial takeaway from it was there was actually just
general support across all of these sectors for what we were trying to do. We didn’t get a lot of
just like pushback on, like, the fundamental of like, having all of our new homes have labels.

What we got a lot of our feedback around was like, Okay, if you’re doing this, these are the
things you have to consider in order for it to be successful. And you know, a big one, use an
existing labeling system. Don’t invent your own, you know, don’t come up with something
that’s super Calgary specific and means nothing outside of the marketplace. Secondly, don’t
make it extra administrative step for either like an applicant, like a builder or a homeowner, or
anything like that. Or the energy advisors, like, if we, you know, have to do all this stuff and
then submit something extra, like, that’s just extra steps that is really not going to make it as
successful. So if you can work it into an existing process, that’s preferable lead time, especially
around it being mandatory. That we heard that from from the builder side as well as from the
energy advisor side. If you’re going to do this, we need time to do some internal training to
ramp up our respective capacities so that this doesn’t act as like a bottleneck going forward,
not tied to building code or the granting of occupancy. That was something that we heard
internally, as well as very clearly from our province. You know, this is not separate to, this is
separate from, from building code and just general transparency about, okay, you’re asking us
for all this data. You’re collecting that data. That’s fine. But like, what do you what are you
doing with it? What do you want from it? Be transparent with what you’re going to do with it.
And so those were the major points of feedback that we heard that really led to us being able
to, like CO develop a lot of the program frameworks with industry in this way, and just a slight
piece of background information, some of you may be very well aware of the undergrad label
system. Some of you might not at all. The undergrad rating system is what we chose to go with
as a result of our of our engagement. It’s the most recognized one in Canada. It’s nationally
administered by Natural Resources Canada, and we wanted to make sure that what we were
doing was comparable, you know, between jurisdictions. I had that national standard for it, for
those that are unfamiliar and enter guide label, this is an official record of a homes energy
performance based on a model usage. And allows people to see what their you know modeled
energy performance, energy use intensity is how that relates against their peer reference,
house and and then breaks down like where in the that house, a lot of the the losses are, or the
energy uses are. It also comes in a very like, fairly user friendly format, when it comes in the
label format, so people would be able to understand it relatively easily. And so that’s where we
went there. So once we had gathered all of our internal or sorry, our external feedback about
what to do, we now had, you know, a design that we needed to pursue, and this is where we
had to switch to our internal myth busting, and where my colleague Liza comes in, who is from
our building services team, once we realized that this is a climate initiative that we cannot
implement as the climate team without involving our business, our building services
department, this is where we turned to collaborating with them. So Liza, I am going to turn it
over to you to talk about our internal myth busting and our program implementation design.
08:41
Thanks, Eric. So yeah, as Eric was saying, how building services got involved in this was partly
because of the feedback we got from builders saying, Yeah, we are up for an energy label
program, but we wanted to be during a process that we’re already familiar with. We don’t want
to add another process in. And the main touch point that builders have in building, obviously, is
in the building permit application section. So that’s how we decided that was the right way to
collaborate. Now, internal myth busting, when we talk about it, was building up internal support
from leadership down in this program, obviously, we had Council support, which was great, and
the strategy, as Eric mentioned, was approved. So that was fantastic. But there was a bit of a
portion of explaining the benefit of the home energy label, once again, and why it was
important to industry, really, where leadership was concerned, from building services
standpoint, was four things external, I would say, was how a builder is going to react. We did
have year long engagement with the builders, and we were, we were sure that, yes, there was
going to be support. There were enough builders out there already doing it, so that was okay.
There was also concern about codes impact and Okay, is it going to affect your occupancy? We
don’t want to hold up occupancy, etc. So that was implemented in the program design, as we’ll
talk about internally as well. We didn’t want it to be resource heavy. They were concerned
about, say, the inspections team having to go in and look at labels, etc. So we factored that
into the design as well, and then obviously housing supply now being probably the biggest
conversation around not wanting to add any bureaucracy on that side. So we went, we did have
an iterative design process where we went back and forth to try and find a, you know, a system
or a program that did meet its intent of getting an energy label and yet not, I would say,
impeding the regular flow of business. So if you go to the next slide, how we did this was
actually using our existing intake process. So most of our permits come in electronically
through E permit, and a builder can apply and upload their documents electronically. So to
simplify it for builders, all we did was we added in another additional capacity to upload
document, which you see on the right. It’s called a layer of intent, super simple. All it does is a
builder says, you know, this is who I am, and I have, or intend, to work with an energy advisor
to get the energy label done once that’s in, that’s it that says that they’re interested to get into
the program. And then that’s really all that the building services team has to do. Climate has an
agreement with Natural Resources Canada to get that final label at the back end. So
administratively, it was like, really simple, straightforward, and as well, we didn’t have to follow
up with builders after the construction process, we automated as much of the process as we
could at screening. You know, the person who screens the applications just has to add a tick
mark saying, Yep, they submitted this letter of intent, and this is the intent for how it would
move forward, even when it gets mandatory. And then to the next slide, where we are now is
we’ve already implemented the pilot program. So the pilot program, essentially is a one year
program where we have rebates given back to builders who are participating. $250 rebate per
label, up to a maximum of 7500 and so far, I would say, Eric, we’re in the plus minus 30%
participation rates. Yeah, and we are working collaboratively. So with climate billing services,
our law team and community by law standards to finalize. Actually, we’re in the final stages of
the by law. A draft is ready, and now we are getting ready to get to committee and council, etc.
In getting this into a mandatory stage, we’ve had enough run up from industry to see what are
the positives, what feedback they have, and we’ve seen that it’s pretty smooth, actually the
process. So yeah, that’s what’s next for us for enactment in early 2025 when we are looking to
make this a mandatory label. So with that, I think I’ll hand it back to you. Eric, thanks, excellent.
13:40
Thank you. Lizza,
13:43
yeah. And so with this, as we transition from the pilot stage to the mandatory stage, one of the
major things that we have been able to take out of the pilot process is really having local
industry trial the process that we are hoping to make mandatory. And by having as many
different users from the applicant side, like trial the process and give them that avenue for
feedback, we’ve been able to work that into our, you know, the by law and the final the final
design ahead of it becoming mandatory. Having that proof of concept has proven to be quite
effective. You know, this feedback and these lessons learned have really helped inform our final
bylaw development. The other side of it is really we have a group of like, what we’ve been
referring to is, like our early adopter participants. We have a good group, you know, core group
of builders that were either already undertaking this level of, you know, testing and labeling for
their properties, or have been very supportive of it, and have gotten on board early. We have
our home energy performance map that is coming out in later this year. They are going to be
among the first builders to show up on that map, having, you know, and having that
transparency around the performance of their of all of the projects that they’ve been working
on. And then the other piece. It was very much our intent. And I would say probably the leading
reason why we undertook the pilot was providing that clear signal to industry that this bylaw is
coming, and here is the appropriate amount of lead time so that preparation can occur, so that
ramp up can occur, so that by the time the mandatory rollout happens, we’ve allowed that, you
know what a fair amount of time for everybody to get, to get prepared, and just to show a bit of
a sneak peek of what the map is going to look like and how it’s going to function, this home
energy performance map is really going to act as our centralized and reliable source of
information, and we wanted it to be as open and accessible as possible for all residential
properties throughout the city. This is going to provide an ongoing energy performance status
for all currently only low density residential properties. But as we do grow the map and grow
our program, we are going to see increase in the different property types that are available. So
you can see it will be a mix of digital, digitally assigned labels in conjunction with the
homeowner guide labels that we have in terms of a few, a few takeaways, like communications
and the need for them has has come out, like through our engagements, both both internally
and externally, it’s been become very clear that adequate communication and adequate
education and capacity building opportunities is needed on, you know, energy labeling
generally, the benefits that it offers as well as like, why, why we’re doing it, what we hope to
get out of it, and why it should be important to to industry as well. We really see this as like a
key first step in improving the energy uses of our residential sector and moving towards an
increase in demand for more energy efficient properties, you know, more low carbon housing,
as we’ve been referring to it, and really looking to empower Calgarians to better understand
their energy use and help people make more informed decisions, especially when it comes to
like their energy costs, you know, operational costs of owning the property that you are setting
out to buy, or of renting the property or leasing the property, knowing more about it, of what it
is going to be like to live there. So with that, we wanted to leave some time for questions at the
end. So please, if anybody has any questions, I have not been looking at the chat. So if there’s
any in there, I have missed them. But if anyone has any questions, please feel free to hop in or
to pop something in the chat.
17:46
Oh, sorry, just This is Laura here, so I’ll help manage the chat conversation with you guys for
right now. Eric, did you just want to stop sharing your screen so we can see all everybody?
Absolutely. So wonderful. Hello. All right, so for me, I just want to start with Cindy’s question, do
you have any plans to Oh, so many chapters came in. Do you have any plans to expand this
program to existing homes? And if so, what are you thinking?
18:22
So simply, the first step in expanding it to existing homes is the is the digital label going past
that is going to be more it’s just more complicated, because a lot of existing homes don’t have
regular touch points with the city the way new homes do through the building permit process.
So we have a number of other programs around energy efficiency upgrades to different
property types that will create those possibly having some rebate programs for them. But you
know, just based on the volume of existing homes and you know the ownership structures,
that’s going to take a much longer, much longer time to do. So, short answer yes. Longer
answer is over time, and it’s a lot more complicated, but yes, we are hoping to eventually have
one for covering a lot of our existing homes.
19:22
Excellent. Okay. Liz, did you have anything that you wanted to share in addition? No, Perfect,
good teamwork here. Okay, how are the labels being shared by builders at the houses
themselves?
19:39
At the houses themselves, the builders display it on, usually, the electrical panel. It depends on
when the label arrives to them in in the building process. So if the builder is still in possession
of the house, when the thing comes, they will display it on the on the electric. Circle panel.
Sometimes the label arrives after the builder has sold the property, and so at that point they
will send it to the to the new owner of the home, and
20:13
as they as they please.
20:16
Hey, great. All right, we have some hands up. Stephen, did you want to unmute and ask your
question?
20:22
Yeah, for sure. I wanted to ask. So it sounds like I just want to verify. The energy auditor goes in
after the house is completely built, right? And does the labeling at that point, or do they do it
based on the plans before it’s actually built both. So when you get an enter guide label, it is
based on all the physical properties of the home that can be gleaned from all of the design
specs, with the exception of the air tightness testing, which is done on site via a blower door
test that happens like at the later stages of construction, usually after they’re done the board
phase of the home, which is like when all the drywall and everything is on so the house is
sealed to the level of air tightness that it will be at, but is not finished. In the sense of all of the
finishing on site is not complete. That allows them to, if they find a deficiency in the air
tightness testing, to pull stuff off and fix it without undoing a lot of the finishing work. So I
would say it’s about like, you know, kind of near the end, but the house is not fully complete
when that lower door testing is done. Okay, thank you.
21:39
All right, we have Dennis, and then we’re going to go back to the chat for a question. Dennis,
you want? Dennis. You want to unmute and ask your
21:46
question. Do you see this program having an impact on how houses or homes are valued,
where energy efficiency becomes part of the kind of valuation process, and I guess in two
streams, one sort of city assessments, but also kind of the appraisal process,
22:12
man, I hope so. Dennis,
22:14
really what? Before we hit that point, we have to build the value proposition for Calgary
residents. And so that is teaching them what something like a home energy label represents,
residents. And so that is teaching them what something like a home energy label represents,
and then how it shows the energy efficiency of that house, and what having an energy efficient
home means in terms of ownership, and so there is definitely some building to do there, as it
relates to our general population generally. Eventually we are hoping to get to a point where
there is a value tied to that it will always likely be in the eye of the beholder, type of thing
where it’s a physical feature of the home that people will value, more or less depending on
their own values. But yet, we are eventually hoping that it gets to that point currently, likely
not. I mean, it will never be location or square footage. Those things always dictate value above
all others. But we are hoping that it starts rising to the to the top of people’s priority list when it
comes to it, but you know, there, there definitely is a need for more more education and
knowledge building on that, on that front,
23:34
all right? Well, it feels like that feeds right into the next question, which is, do you have
partners that communicate and educate the Calgarians?
23:46
Yes, we have come at it a number of different ways. There is a component of educating
industry and kind of industry speaking to industry about this, so that’s where our local
associations have come have been really good partners for us, providing, you know,
communication education opportunities directly, directly to industry, allows us to interface with
them, but also kind of that peer to peer style communication. And then we also have education
and communications to do with the public more generally. So we’ve gone creating our own
content in house, through educational videos and promotional ad campaigns, things like that.

We’ve also utilized other you know, there’s a number of like home renovation shows and home
and garden shows and things like that style, where we’re able to interface directly with the
public and educate them, like while you’re doing renos, while you’re doing updates, this is how
it you know you can integrate energy efficiency into that. And then we have a very wonderful
Outreach and Communications team here that does a number of local events and presents to a
number of local events as a. Good connection with with community organizations, like our local
climate hubs, like our local organizations like that, they can help communicate that as well. So
we are all of that to say yes, and we’re trying to take as broad of an approach to reach as broad
of an audience as possible, tailoring our messages appropriately. But yes, knowing that, it will
have to be spread across a number of different areas.
25:28
All right, Mike, I see your hand up. Did you want to unmute and ask your
25:33
question? Thank you very much. Ora, I’d
25:36
25:36
also like to thank thank you for your presentation. Liza and Eric, I’m I was wondering if you had
any thoughts on self built in tiny homes as potential Whole,
25:53
potentially more efficient ones.
26:01
In terms of thoughts,
26:04
I would say where that comes is, when we’re talking about energy performance of homes,
there’s your, you know, your overall energy use and how your energy how much energy you
use per square footage. So a lot of you know, newer built homes are often bigger square
footage wise. While they tend to be more efficient, ie, using less energy per square foot, they
do tend to use more energy overall, simply because it’s a larger space you know, majority of
homes here, their space heating makes up a very large percentage of their energy use. So
when it comes to your your question, it’s around, well, smaller homes use less energy. So, you
know, the city is always looking for, you know, Kent making sure we are incentivizing,
promoting buildings that are most energy efficient, be it through the way that they’re built and
designed, or through like just their square footage? Yeah, I would say we are. We are in favor of
all buildings that are energy efficient or use less energy so that would definitely be a building
type that we look upon favorably. I favoritely,
27:24
hey back in the chat for your home energy map, where you have both enter guide and virtual
ratings, do you show the confidence of the rating on the map?
27:35
So we were very clear to different shape between what is an actual inner guide label and what
is a digital label. And so for like, when the map is launched, the map will be embedded in a web
page, and in that web page is where it will so the map, it won’t show up on the map itself, but it
shows up in the instructions of how to use and interpret the map of being very clear. One is a
physical model and the other one is a digitally approximated model baseline of that home. And
yeah, so we are, we are being very clear that the two that the two scores are different, and that
one is considered to be the closest to the truth that you can get in our industry currently, so
yes, to say that it’s it’s very clear delineation between the two, and the instructions of how to
interpret that data are included, but yet not embedded in the map itself, but in the in the
instructions that that come With how to use the map.
28:41
Since I do, either of you have any final thoughts that you wanted to share?
28:49
I mean, yeah, no, sorry, Elizabeth, I know I was going to say that. Hey, we just want to wish,
you know, groups out here who are trying to get to mandatory or like, you know, implement
home energy label programs. It has been a process. I would say, gosh, we started this before it
actually came out. It was a year long external, internal engagement. There’s a lot of back and
forth, but definitely, yeah, worth it. And wish everyone here the best,
29:22
yeah, and I would say that we aren’t. We aren’t home and cooled yet. We still have to have a
bylaw go through committee and council. We’re hopeful, but neither Liz or I are the counting
our chickens before they hatch. Pipe, I would say we have had a lot of really good feedback by
involving industry early and keeping them involved over the entire development process. And
the collaboration between building services and climate has proven to be incredibly effective in
the sense that I we were not here speaking to you today. If that doesn’t happen. So that that,
and at the time that we start, first started working on that collaboration, I would say that was a
fairly new way to approach program implementation at the city, to be that explicitly
collaborating across businesses on like one essentially, is a climate objective, but working with
another department the way we have, I think that that has been a key to success, probably the
key just the success that we’ve had so far.
30:30
Great. Thank you. In your time of sharing your final thoughts, we’ve got another question that
jumped up so dawn. Do you just want to unmute and share your question?
30:39
Yeah, I just you shared some great thoughts in our kind of our pre interview thing that I think
that might be interesting to the group. Just where do you got, where you got your resources
from, and what, what cities you looked for, for inspiration when you were kind of creating these
and and the other maps and things that you were doing, if you could maybe shout out to some
of those best resources people want to look elsewhere to kind of do some of their own
research.
31:03
Absolutely, when we’re talking mapping and digital labeling, there are we were very specific
with what we wanted. We needed something, a very entry level foundational piece. There are
providers in this country that work on creating digital labels that are incredibly robust. They are
providers in this country that work on creating digital labels that are incredibly robust. They are
very robust digital models. So if anyone here from a municipality or from the province or
anything it would be looking to do this, there are providers that that work, you know, I know,
like we’ve seen other cities go down that road, you know, they’ve, they’ve have more specific
uses in mind. But you know, the like provinces like BC and New Brunswick, City of Saskatoon,
Toronto, Ottawa, these are all places that are, are looking to do this work and undertaking
various methods to do it, that is definitely a key takeaway. Like this is a route that we have
found works well for us. So far, there is many different ways to go about this that all would be
very effective and would provide you exactly what you’re looking for. So that would be what I
would say there and and something I think is going to become a lot more commonplace as
we’ve gone down this road, we’ve heard from a lot of other jurisdictions in this country that are
either doing this, in the process of doing this, or want to to do this. So it’s going to become a lot
more commonplace going forward, for similar reasons that we had right. It’s like everybody, all
urbanized centers, all municipalities, a good proportion of their building stock is residential and
usually private property, so knowing what the energy performance is of them is quite tricky. So
the digital route is one that provides that baseline that’s been missing for a lot of people up
until now.
32:59
Yeah, feel that just a question is emergent in the chat about the realtors, did they embrace this
program?
33:08
Yes and no,
33:10
it is.
33:14
I would say they haven’t been a supporter in the in the sense of like, you know what? There
was some education that needed to be to be done there, and some, you know, some
communication about what this represented and why we were doing it. You know, the question
about, does it impact home values? We heard that already today. It’s a fair one, but it basically
providing them with the information of this is the information that will exist. This is how you
would use it. If you’re asked about it. This is how you would, you know, potential sellers,
potential buyers. This is how you would communicate it. I would say it’s been slow, but over
time, I think, you know, they’re starting to hear it more from people buying and selling homes.
They’re starting to hear it a bit more in the marketplace. So I think the tide is turning a bit from
like, Oh, this is something new, to like, maybe this is something useful and that we should get
more well versed on. And I mean, it’s, I would say it’s a similar to the other industries. We have
our strong supporters and those who maybe aren’t as much, but yeah, it’s something that
requires, like, relationship building over time in order to get people on board, I would say.
34:27
And I would say, like, most of the feedback has been on the existing home labeling more than
the new, because the new typically has a different selling process directly from the builders
themselves. So not so much on the new home side, yeah. And as Eric said, I don’t know,
embrace is a strong word. I wouldn’t say that we were embraced, but, you know, it’s, it’s a little
bit about the market demanding it eventually. And you know, you take it a step at a time, I’d
say once, there’s more education out there, which is part of the reason for this program
existing. Then consumers know what. You know what this is, what they’re looking for. And then
once the demand starts, then the market automatically, sort of changes toward it.
35:11
Oh, thank you so much for all of the expertise that you shared. For those people who are
attending next week in person session, one of the things you’ll get to see is the plans for the
map that SBM has been working on. So that’s going to be exciting to show you, and to hear
your guys’s feedback on that. So thank you so much to both of you for your time here today.

We have about just over five minutes until the next session, so go grab a drink. There’s a little
key takeaway questionnaire in the chat, and we’ll see you soon. Thank you guys so much.
Really appreciate it. Thank you.
35:46
Excellent. Thanks everybody. Bye.

00:00
So hi. Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to the heat pump myth buster. Today we’ll be
busting the myth do heat pumps work in Manitoba? I’m Anna, a mechanical systems
professional with efficiency Manitoba. I support various residential, commercial HVAC
programs, including the energy efficiency Assistance Program, air source and ground source
heat pump program and variable flow system rebate. I’ll be providing an overview of heat
pump systems, a couple sizing examples and answer the question, do heat pump, air source
heat pumps work in Manitoba? Lindsay Robinson, mechanical systems engineer with em EMS
high performance building team will touch on reducing systems loads, additional heat pump
constraints and limitations, alternative heat pump options and alternative heat pump options.
So what is a heat pump? Heat pumps typically utilized in HVAC applications. Use a vapor
compression cycle. This is refrigerant circulated through four stages, expansion, evaporation,
compression and heat rejection. Air conditioners, chillers and refrigerators use the vapor
compression cycle for cooling, which is transferring heat from an inside space to an outdoor
space. A heat pump uses the same cycle, but includes a reversing valve. The reversing valve
allows the system to operate in two directions, either transferring heat from outside in or from
inside out. So what is an air source heat pump? An air source heat pump uses the ambient air
as a heat source, transferring heat energy from within the air air source. Heat pumps are
available in a variety of arrangements, and can be further categorized based on how heat is
distributed throughout the building, while many of the graphics and examples shown
throughout this presentation represent residential arrangements. Heat pump equipment is
available for both residential and commercial applications, air to air. Heat pumps transfer heat
from an evaporator air coil through refrigerant to a condenser air coil. The conditioned air is
then distributed through the occupied zone using fan energy centrally ducted air source heat
pumps use ductwork to distribute conditioned air throughout the building. Think a typical newer
home with a central furnace and distributed ducting throughout other types of systems that
would fall under this would be air handlers, fan coils, furnaces or rooftop units, air to air
systems can also be implemented without centralized ductwork. This would be considered a
ductless system. Refrigerant piping is extended from the outdoor unit to individual indoor
conditioning units throughout a building. Individual conditioning units could then be located at
the floor level, on the wall or even sealed are also air to water heat pumps. These transfer heat
energy from an evaporator air coil through the refrigerant to a condenser fluid heat exchanger,
heating fluid, typically water or glycol, is then distributed throughout the building through a
piping network to to the terminal heat transfer units. Terminal heat transfer units could be
things like in floor heating slabs, radiant panels, wall fins and fan coils, either way, for all three
of the units, there will be an outdoor unit that transfers the heat to or from the air this unit will
often look like a typical air conditioner or a condensing unit. As part of the greener homes
initiative Natural Resources Canada classified eligible air source heat pumps using the following
performance criteria. We use the same criteria in the efficiency Manitoba heat pump repay to
determine the difference between standard and cold climate air source heat pumps, you’ll
notice that the cold climate units have three additional criteria, heating capacity maintenance,
which results in less of a capacity drop off at colder temperatures, minimum coefficient of
performance at colder temperatures and variable speed. Compressors, what makes a cold
climate, air source, heat pump different multi stage, cascading, multi stage or cascading
compression systems, enhanced refrigerant control and variable capacity, compressors or fans
to match unit operation with low demand. So what does this? How does these performance differences

look when applied in real life? I’ve taken a home with a peak heat loss of 50 MVH or
14.6 kilowatts at a Winnipeg design day temperature. Which is minus 33 degrees Celsius, and
then selected two nominal four ton heat pumps to illustrate the difference between a standard
air source heat pump and a cold climate Air Source Heat Pump. Both four ton units fall within
the 70 to 105% sizing recommendation by in our can specifically the standard air source heat
pump rated heating capacity meets 88% of the building’s heat loss, and the cold climate unit
meets 96% so let’s do a quick thermal balance point analysis to further compare these units.
Thermal balance point refers to the outdoor air temperature, where the heat pumps heating
capacity is equal to the heat loss of the building. The balance point of the standard air
condition, the air source, heat pump, falls at about minus 10 degrees Celsius, and the balance
point of the cold climate, air source, heat pump, falls at about minus 20 degrees Celsius. As this
is a Manitoba specific session, I’ll assume most of us are familiar with the winter weather that
we have here. More specifically, the temperatures can sometimes go below minus 30
periodically throughout the winter, while it may be daunting that an air source heat pumps
heating output is only capable of meeting a portion of the building’s peak heating loss, I also
want to illustrate how much of the heating season falls within the units capabilities. With that
same balance point temperature determined, the air source, heat pump can meet load for
almost 5000 hours of the year. That’s 70% of our heating season hours in Winnipeg, the cold
climate unit is almost at 6000 annual heating hours, which is about 87% of our of our annual
heating requirements. Now to look at the implications of three different sizes of cold climate
units, I’m comparing the same heat loss so 5050, MBH, and I’ve taken a nominal 210, 310, and
that same four ton cold climate air source, heat pump. All of these heat pumps come from the
same manufacturer and model series, the rated heating capacity of each unit at 47 degrees
Fahrenheit, or eight degrees Celsius, is as follows. The two time meets 47% three ton is 70%
and the four ton is 96% this results in a balance point of minus nine degrees Celsius for the two
ton unit, minus 15 for the three ton unit, and minus 20 for the full time unit. So looking at the
hourly profile, we see that while the two ton unit falls outside of the recommended 70 to 105%
sizing recommendation, it would still meet a significant number of heating hours in Winnipeg,
nearly 4500 hours, which is 66% of our heating season. The three ton unit would meet about
5200 hours, and the four ton unit is at about 6000 while well, in all six cases, an air source heat
pump does not meet the buildings peak heating requirements. On a Peak Design Day, they still
meet a significant proportion of the heating season hours. Does that mean they don’t work in
Manitoba? No air source heat pumps do work for our climate in Manitoba, just additional
considerations need to be made. It’s crucial to identify your goals when choosing an air source,
heat pump, it is reasonable to size a heat pump for buildings cooling load, and there will still be
shoulder season heating benefits by doing so, systems can also be sized to balance the heat
and cooling loads. This would result in a unit which might be slightly oversized on cooling, but
would provide heating down to lower temperatures, or systems can be selected to meet the
majority of the building’s heating while you could size a heat pump to meet all of the heating
season hours. There are disadvantages in doing so this will result in a higher upfront unit cost
or unit performance, from short cycling and reduced overall efficiency, reduced equipment
lifespan, thermal stratification, resulting in hot and cold spots or dehumidification performance
and acoustic implement implications. No matter how your heat pump is sized, an auxiliary
heating source will be required for use in our cooler climate.
09:53
Historically, air source heat pumps have only been paired with electric resistance auxiliary
heating system. So. Many of the systems on the market do not require or limit you to electric
electric resistance backup, air source heat pumps can be paired with fuel fired equipment such
as natural gas boilers or furnaces. In all electric systems, the electric resistance heating
element is located downstream of the refrigerant coil, which typically results in topping up the
supplier temperature when the outdoor air temperature is beyond the units thermal balance
point. Dual fuel systems report refer to air source heat pumps paired with natural gas heating
equipment due to equipment arrangements, the heat pump and the gas furnace will not
operate co currently. So when making a mechanical system efficiency upgrades, heat pumps
can help achieve that goal. It is recommended, before looking at mechanical system upgrades,
that considerations be made in reducing system loads. I’ll pass it off to Lindsay to discuss this
further.
11:06
Thank you very much, Anna.
11:12
Okay, so as Anna mentioned, when we’re sizing heat pumps, we must be aware of the heating
and cooling loads that they are intended to serve. One of the primary drivers of load is the
building enclosure. While this figure is representative of a temperature rather than a cold
climate like ours, it’s still a good illustration of the relative proportion of heat loss in the winter
and heat gain in the summer for different components of a typical house, due to lower ambient
air temperatures of a cold climate, we could reasonably expect there would be a lesser
proportion of heat loss or gain from the ground or below gray surfaces, and a greater
proportion for the above grading. Closure in cold climates like ours, air leakage is one of the
important load components shown on the previous slide, and we can see here that many of the
most common areas are air leakage, in particular. Transitions and joints between the different
assemblies, such as walls to floor and roof or windows and doors to their parent wall, are
common areas of air leakage. Similarly mechanical, electrical and plumbing penetrations
require careful design and detailing. There are many factors which influence early kitchen
buildings, such as the effect of wind on the exterior enclosure, depressurization effects on the
interior due to combustion or ventilation appliances, and the stack effect as warm air tends to
rise. As buildings increase in height, the stack effect, thermal stratification and pressure
differences can become more pronounced. This tends to cause a negative or low pressure on
lower level floors, inducing cold air infiltration, while positive pressure on the upper floors
causes warm air exfiltration. In the NRCan heat pump sizing guide, they suggest several
methods of estimating heating and cooling loads which are shown here aligned with several
different air source, heat pump applications, CSA f2 80 load analysis can be used for new
construction in existing as well as for existing houses which have undergone extensive
envelope upgrades to improve their energy efficiency. Perhaps is that have completed energy
efficiency evaluations, particularly those which have the inner guide rating system evaluation
design loads can be estimated based on the information contained in the audit report. Also,
energy modeling software such as Fauci 1000 can be used to estimate design heating and
cooling loads based on the construction details of the build and envelope. And lastly, I’ll note
that while there is no precise way of estimating loads from installed equipment capacities, and
this approach should only be used as a very last resort. As an illustrative example. Here we
show the hot 2000 modeling of heating and cooling loads for some prototypical dwellings, a
1500 square foot single detached bungalow in the blue egg. In each case, we vary the air
tightness as well as aspects of the building enclosure to represent several different vintages
and associated levels of performance. These range from relatively leaky and moderately
insulated enclosure typical of an older home in the left most column to the near net zero, high
performance home on the right. Consider the incremental improvement between these
examples as representative of energy efficiency of representative of potential energy efficiency
retrofits. For instance, consider the changes from the typical case to the NBC 2020, tier one
case in which the attic insulation, air tightness and windows are all improved. Looking at the
associated heating and cooling loads, we can see that the most significant improvement is
between the older and typical home, but that the typical home and 2020 tier one levels still
show. Show a substantial 20% reduction in heating. Also note that the building enclosure
improves.

As the building enclosure improves, the heating and cooling loads become
increasingly balanced, which can be an important consideration in right sizing equipment now,
taking those same three cold climate units from earlier and comparing them to a similar
premise, but with an improved envelope, which reduces the homes heat loss from 50 MBH to
34 MBH, similar to the NBC, 2020, tier one levels, with the reduced load. The rated heating
capacity of the units at 47 degrees Fahrenheit, or eight degrees Celsius is as follows, two ton
meets the meets 71% of the building heat loss. The three ton means 103% of heat loss, and the
four ton 141% of the heat loss. The balance point of each unit is as follows as well. The two ton
comes in at minus three degrees Fahrenheit or minus 19 Celsius. The three ton at minus five
degrees Fahrenheit or minus 20 Celsius, and the four ton at minus 15 Fahrenheit or minus 26
Fahrenheit Celsius. It is interesting to note that for this particular manufacturer, and in this
case, the two ton unit essentially meets the same heating output demand the building that has
the three ton unit. So the two ton meat unit roughly the same hourly profile as the four ton unit
in the previous example, while it may be advantageous to install the larger four ton unit for this
home as it will meet the vast majority of heating season hours. There are implications to
oversizing the heat pump in such a way. Air source heat pumps should be sized based on the
loads and in the context of the application goals. Some common approaches are to size for
cooling or to size for a portion of the heating, or to size for a majority of heating, undersizing
will create greater dependence on as well as a larger need for auxiliary heating to meet the
peak demand, while oversizing will cause inefficient operation due to increased cycling On and
off. This can cause thermal discomfort, dehumidification issues, and excessive equipment wear,
leading to premature failure in retrofit applications of centrally ducted air source heat pumps.
The maximum size of the air source heat pump may be limited by the maximum airflow
capacity of the existing ductwork. Air source heat pumps provide lower supply air
temperatures, which require more air flow to meet the same heating load when compared with
the traditional furnace. Here are some citing considerations for air source heat pumps.

Firstly, the outdoor unit must be carefully considered. The location of the outdoor unit must be
carefully considered due to its accumulation and the runoff from the defrost cycle. Attachment
to building structure is also generally not recommended due to vibration, and instead, outdoor
units are ideally mounted on a stand with proper vibration isolation and a proper foundation.
This stand also helps with the ice accumulation, which was mentioned above, as well as natural
snow accumulation in our climate. Noise from the compressor and the fan should also be
considered outdoor unit. Fans are typically in a horizontal orientation, which differs from the
vertical orientation of traditional AC systems, barriers such as fences, fences, hedges and
garden sheds, as well as add on features such as blankets or acoustic enclosures and offer
some mitigation for noise, in addition, quality outdoor units also offer low noise operation
modes. Other Air Source Heat Pump configurations include the electrical service and now
capacity. Typical residential heat pumps use breakers size between 20 and 60 amps. Now
electric. Electric load calculation should be performed to confirm the availability capacity of the
existing service. As a note, a 200 amp service is typical for all electric air source heat pump
applications. Another consideration is peak electric demand. Air Source, heat pumps do not
reduce the peak electric demand posed on the electricity grid and considered in the context of
constrained geared capacity in periods of drought or prolonged severe cold weather. Like time
and reliability is another important consideration, one should always check the manufacturer
warranty period and coverage conditions and seek out other user reviews of their make and
model heat pump before making and purchasing this decision. And lastly, commissioning,
system commissioning and performance verification is recommended to ensure energy and
cost savings are actually. Realized. So in summary, air source heat pumps do work in Manitoba,
there are many different system configurations out there, and they offer a wide flexibility to a
wide variety of applications, both new and retrofits. Auxiliary heating is required in all cases to
deal with peak heating loads in the most extreme temperatures of our climate. And air source
heat pumps are a great solution, but have many aspects that must be carefully considered in
selection sizing. Now we would be remiss not to mention ground source heat pumps, as they
are a great alternative technology which address many of the shortcomings of air source heat
their operation is very similar to what we’ve just reviewed, except the heat is exchanged with
the ground rather than ambient air, due to the relatively stable temperature of the earth below
the frost line. Ground source heat pumps are an extremely efficient and reliable and do not
require a supplemental heat source when size for the full heating load,
21:02
load balancing is extremely important for the long term reliability and performance in ground
source heat pumps, perhaps even more so than air source heat pumps, because the ground
can be considered as a thermal battery, and ideally the same amount of heat is exchanged for
heating and cooling on an annual basis. But if these loads are not properly balanced and the
ground heat exchanger not properly sized, it can become frozen or overheated, limiting the
performance of the unit or limiting functionality entirely. Let’s consider a commercial building
example. In these charts, peak heating and cooling loads are represented by the solid lines,
while heating and cooling energy is shown by the shaded area on the left, cooling energy is
approximately 25% larger than the heating while the peak cooling demand is about 70% larger.
The chart on the right is the same building with the additional load of conditioning and
ventilation air added to the ground source system, along with heat recovery on that ventilation
area. Well, this represents a substantial increase in both the peak load and cumulative energy.
It also results in a better overall balance between heating and cooling, and as a result, the
heating energy is now 40% larger, while the peak cooling load is 35% larger. Heating we can
see the implications of this by looking at the ground heat exchanger itself. In fact, the size of
the ground heat exchanger can actually be reduced by 8% because of this better load balance.
These plots of entering and leaving water temperatures from the ground heat exchanger show
that the initial case on the left would tend to warm the ground over time and lead to a decrease
in system efficiency. On the right, we can see that the second scenario has a much more subtle
change over time, yielding more consistent long term performance. So ground source heat
pumps have numerous advantages compared with traditional systems and air source heat
pumps, their operation is not limited by low or high outdoor air temperatures, and they can
operate continuously and effectively in conditions outside the capability of air source heat
pumps.

They offer superior efficiency for the best in class energy and associated cost savings,
and they also provide peak electrical demand reduction compared to electric resistance for air
source heat pumps, which is an important consideration for our problems, especially as we
approach the context of capacity constraints due to load growth as well as prolonged drought
or severe cold weather. Since the compressor portion of a ground source heat pump is located
indoors, unlike most air source heat pumps, which have their compressors outdoors, these
systems also benefit from greater reliability and longevity. Finally, some other considerations.
Again, with as with ground source, as with air source, the electrical service panel capacity must
be considered the lifetime and reliability. Again, Manufacturer Warranty periods and coverage
conditions must be checked for purchasing a unit. But we should also consider siting and
landscaping. Actual space is required for the ground heat exchanger in the context of existing
buildings, infrastructure and landscaping. And then lastly, commissioning installation should be
performed by qualified HVAC professionals, which we would include startup reports and
commissioning is an important aspect for performance verification to make sure your real world
energy and cost savings are realized. Overall, Heat pumps are a more efficient heating system
compared to natural gas or electric resistance heating however, there are benefits and
drawbacks to each type. Air source heat pumps have the benefit of ease of implementation,
generally lower costs, but have temperature operating limits which require supplement heat.
Ground source heat pump have the highest seasonal efficient heating efficiency and can
reduce winter peak demand. And when properly designed and sized, these systems are very
reliable and have great longevity. However, ground source heat pumps typically have a higher
upfront cost compared with other heating systems. So finally, we’re here today in an ongoing
effort to provide incentives and to support both you and your clients and continued work. I
think we might have one slide out of order here, sorry. Overall, Heat pumps are more efficient
heating system compared with natural gas.
25:33
However, there, sorry, we did that one already.
25:38
Apologies. Here, folks, air source,
25:41
heat pumps on the back. Benefits of ease of implementation, lower upfront costs, but ground
source heat pumps offer better efficiency as well as that peak demand reduction and greater
reliability. So of course, we’re available for any questions, comments or discussion. Feel free to
reach out and contact us, yeah, and I are very passionate about heat pumps and their
application, and we hope we’ve lasted a few minutes today. Thank you very much.
26:14
Thank you guys for that presentation. Really appreciate all of the information that you shared
here. So if there is any questions, people can just drop them in the chat. What do you find is,
like the top question that comes from people, when you start talking about heat pumps,
26:38
I find it often comes back to cost. That’s certainly a consideration that’s on everybody’s mind
these days, and certainly recognizing all of the total system cost involved in implementing any
system, whether it’s an air source heat pump in a new or retrofit application, or a ground
source heat pump, we really need to be upfront and cognizant of all of the costs, including
reducting your piping controls and valves monitoring, if you’re into that. But yeah, the cost
associated with system implementation, I find, is, is on a topic of discussion, and one that really
I think we want more data on.
27:20
That sounds good. Yeah, that sounds great.
27:23
One of the things that I’ve heard is people say that we should just be stopping to sell air
conditioners period, because it’s just a simple little adjustment out. Do you guys within the
system to make it so that it could heat and cool, as opposed to only cool? Do you guys have
any opinions on that?
27:40
Personally, I would support that viewpoint. I would also recognize that there have to be caveats
made, that there are going to be specific applications in which cooling is definitely needed and
desired, and the absence of heating is also applicable. So off the top of my head, I could think
of a data center highly cooling dominant. Basically, the equipment provides all the heating for
its own space, as well as probably the building and much more. And you’re just typically just
rejecting heat in all seasons of the year. So it really doesn’t matter that that system would have
any heating capability whatsoever. So I truly believe that we should generally stop selling air
conditioners. But cavid Being there are going to be always special cases that require air
conditioning exclusively.
28:28
Makes sense. All right, so, how does forced air heat measure up to hydronic heat when looking
at G, S, H, p,
28:39
i, pumps.
28:43
I mean, this is my perspective as someone who came from a hydronic based heating system
and moved to an air source, heat pump based forced air system. I think many people recognize
the benefits of hydronic systems. They’re able to move and deliver energy much more
effectively with water than with air. Need a much smaller diameter pipe compared to a much
larger size of ducting to remove the same equivalent energy and hydraulic systems naturally
lend themselves well to radiant heating, which anyone who’s experienced an informed radiant
heating system knows just truly how lovely that can feel your feet on a warm, toasty floor. So
yeah, there there are benefits for reduced noise, less the feeling of draftiness, so to speak, and
just greater overall thermal comfort, specifically in the context of rain heating systems, it also
allows us to have generally lower air temperature, but still a very comfortable mean radiant
temperature in spaces, which is the actual factor which influences the feeling of thermal
comfort. So all that to say is I’m generally a big proponent of hydronic systems. Um, there are a
lot of specialized considerations with those systems as well. So it’s not necessarily a slam dunk,
but if budget allows, and if design capacity allows, I think they’re great options. And if that
answered the question or and if you want to, that’s great way. But
30:21
so does it affect efficiency on how ground source heat pumps transfer heat?
30:31
Not that I’m aware of, but maybe I need to think more about that.
30:35
I’m not entirely certain either. Yeah,
30:41
I believe the primary driver of the efficiency of that system is really just going to be in the
temperature lift that one experiences going from the ground temperature the groundwater
temperature to whatever you’re trying to use to convey your heat in their house. So I’m going
to venture perspective, I think that the hydronic system would be slightly more efficient,
because typically, again, in the context of a radiant eating scenario, you’d be able to run a
lower water temperature in your radiant devices that as compared to the relative air
temperature that you need to provide to convey the same amount of heat. So unless I’m
mistaken in my reasoning, I think that the hydronic system will have a slight edge there.
31:33
31:33
Excellent. All right, are there any final thoughts that you folks want to share? Oh, we have
another question before you. As you gather your thoughts, our last presenter mentioned issues
with low income households in terms of going ongoing maintenance for solar PV panels. Are
there any similar maintenance issues associated with heat pumps, either air or ground?
31:56
I think keeping your say in the context of air source, heat pumps, keeping your outdoor unit
free of obstruction, so that there’s good airflow in and around the unit. So here’s our seat.
Pumps rely on air flow through that outdoor unit condensing unit to actually transfer the heat
so they can’t be blocked or obstructed if somehow leaves or ice and snow accumulation or
other debris is all over. The heat pump, outdoor unit, I could see their effectiveness being
reduced. So probably sort of like a bit of annual maintenance in terms of cleaning, checking for
damage. No varmints have taken a vermin taking up residence in there, that kind of thing,
probably similar maintenance to as compared to a traditional air conditioning outdoor unit. I
just want to make sure it’s clean, protected, probably serviced annually. I’m not exactly sure on
the maintenance requirements for air source, heat pump outdoor unit, even though I do have
one. So that’s on my spring cleaning to do list. But yeah, I think that yeah. And then ground
source heat pumps in terms of maintenance, maybe similar to our source heat pumps, probably
the compressors need some check every now and again just to make sure that they’re
operating properly. I think in both cases, you might want to check for appropriate refrigerant
pressures. So if your air source heat pump has a refrigerant leak, it will lose pressure and lose
effectiveness and not be able to transfer heat appropriately. But you’ll probably see some loud
noises or heating effectiveness issues or some signs that the system isn’t operating correctly, if
that type of issue is present,
33:54
trying to think anything else,
33:58
yeah, off the top of my head, that’s that’s what I’ve got.
34:01
Yeah, that sounds to me like it in terms of resources, it’s more of a time resource than a
money. Monetary resource in terms of maintenance. Is that correct? What I heard it
34:13
probably having an HVAC contractor professional come out annually, I would say, is probably a
good idea. So budget a couple of 100 bucks for their visits, and then anything that might come
up as being
34:27
necessary maintenance. But,
34:30
yeah, great, great. Can you share anything in terms of what a typical payback period is for
either ground source or air source heat pumps?
34:39
It’s funny that the question it should come up because last night I had intended to put a slide
together comparing the annual energy savings, annual energy cost savings, and some net
present values and ROIs based on local assume system costs. I did not get around to it, so I
don’t have that data. Available, but I would love to put it together, and I could, we could include
it in this slide deck it’s distributed.
35:07
Sure. Yeah, all right. So unless there’s any more comments that questions that come up in the
chat, or people raise their hand, do you guys have any final thoughts that you want to share
just before we wrap up for the afternoon? I’m good
35:23
air source. Heat pumps do work in Manitoba. Don’t believe anyone who says otherwise, but
they need special consideration, as with any HVAC system, needs to be properly designed and sized so.